[Replying to post 68 by rstrats]
I'm sorry I mis read (I thought you were saying there were 6 days in the week -- duh (me).
My bad, just ignore.
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Matthew 12:40
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Post #71
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Re: Matthew 12:40
Post #74liamconnor,
re: "I am not sure one needs to appeal to ancient sources; we all use this in common idiom."
If we do I'm not aware of it. Can you give examples where someone says that they spent a daytime doing something when no part of a daytime could have taken place or where someone says that they spent a night time doing something when no part of a night time could have occurred?
BTW, your Esther account doesn't preclude at least a part of 3 daytimes and at least a part of 3 night times.
re: "I am not sure one needs to appeal to ancient sources; we all use this in common idiom."
If we do I'm not aware of it. Can you give examples where someone says that they spent a daytime doing something when no part of a daytime could have taken place or where someone says that they spent a night time doing something when no part of a night time could have occurred?
BTW, your Esther account doesn't preclude at least a part of 3 daytimes and at least a part of 3 night times.
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Post #75
With another new year, maybe someone new looking in will know of examples as requested in the OP and clarified in further posts. And again, remember that the purpose of this topic is not to discuss how long the Messiah was in the heart of the earth. As stated, there are other topics that do that. However, there are some who say that Matthew 12:40 is using common Jewish idiomatic language to try to explain the missing 3rd night, which would have to be the case with a 6th day of the week crucifixion/1st day of the week resurrection. But in order to legitimately say that it was employing common, idiomatic/figure of speech/coloquial language, one would have to know of other instances where a daytime or a night time was predicted to be involved with an event when no part of the daytime or no part of the night time could occur. I am simply looking for some of those instances, scriptural or otherwise. So far no one has come forth with any.
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Re: Matthew 12:40
Post #77It seems to me this is key to the point; if the expression "three days and nights" is unique to Jesus, then it counts whatever he says it counts. Even if it wasn't there is Nothing to prohibit him using the expression as he saw fit.shnarkle wrote:The problem is that this isn't really an idiomatic expression in the first place.
If Jesus is recorded as being resurrected on the Sunday morning (from Friday night) we can conclude that Friday > Sunday = "Three days and nights" according to HIS usage of the expression. Since he was not literally dead three full days and full nights (and since if he were he would not have been resurrected on the "third day" as is explicitly stated in scripture) then he must have been using HIS expression idiomatically. And as stated we can simply accept that the period equaled whatever he indicated it meant in hindsight.
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
Re: Matthew 12:40
Post #78I'm not following this argument. Jesus quotes from the book of Jonah: "Now the Lord had prepared a great fish to swallow up Jonah. And Jonah was in the belly of the fish three days and three nights."JehovahsWitness wrote:It seems to me this is key to the point; if the expression "three days and nights" is unique to Jesus, then it counts whatever he says it counts. Even if it wasn't there is Nothing to prohibit him using the expression as he saw fit.shnarkle wrote:The problem is that this isn't really an idiomatic expression in the first place.
This passage along with the other passages all indicate that they meant three complete days. The usage of the expression is what determines its meaning. If Jesus didn't want what he said to be understood, he would have presented it in such a way as to evoke confusion. This clearly wasn't the case here as the scribes and Pharisees all told Pilate to put a guard on the tomb for "three days". While they may have been using the idiom, as I already pointe out; this in no way negates the fact that it can refer to three complete days.
The facts don't support this theory. He isn't using an idiom in the first place. This is what I pointed out already. The idiom is "three days", and whenever "nights" are included it is no longer an idiomatic expression.If Jesus is recorded as being resurrected on the Sunday morning (from Friday night) we can conclude that Friday > Sunday = "Three days and nights" according to HIS usage of the expression.
Something to document this would be nice.Since he was not literally dead three full days and full nights
By definition, literal speech cannot be figurative speech; it isn't possible to use literal speech figuratively. This is why figurative speech is necessary in the first place.and since if he were he would not have been resurrected on the "third day" as is explicitly stated in scripture) then he must have been using HIS expression idiomatically.
Don't you mean according to your interpretation of what he meant? Nobody is claiming that Jesus didn't know what he was talking about; at least not in this topic. You're claiming that he wasn't in the tomb for a complete three days because, among other things; he was using a literal expression instead of a figure of speech that he used in other places. This doesn't make a literal expression figurative speech. The fact that the figure "three days" doesn't necessarily have to be less than three complete days is proof enough.And as stated we can simply accept that the period equaled whatever he indicated it meant in hindsight.
The laws of language are violated by figurative speech, but literal speech cannot violate the laws themselves. Intentional violations or deviations from the laws of language are to emphasize or deepen the meaning of what is conveyed. They are understood to be figurative, e.g. "they painted the town red last night" To then conclude that "those guys had too much fun last night" means that they actually painted the town red last night doesn't follow. In literary circles this would be tantamount to an abomination. Jesus kept the law, even the laws of usage and language.
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Re: Matthew 12:40
Post #79[Replying to post 76 by shnarkle]
No my point was that if Jesus quoted the scripture and gave it an idiomatic meaning rather than a literal one, then by looking at how long he (Jesus) was dead we can see with hindsight how long the idiomatic expression referred to. It's like if I said "its as long as a piece of string" even if common usage of that expression was 6 inches, if you subsequently get to see the string in question, you can see how long *I* had in mind (even if my usage is contrary to contemporary usage). In short, Jesus obviously used the expression to refer to the length of time he would be dead. So the real question is "How long was he dead"? Then, "three days and nights" means that long (however long it was).
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No my point was that if Jesus quoted the scripture and gave it an idiomatic meaning rather than a literal one, then by looking at how long he (Jesus) was dead we can see with hindsight how long the idiomatic expression referred to. It's like if I said "its as long as a piece of string" even if common usage of that expression was 6 inches, if you subsequently get to see the string in question, you can see how long *I* had in mind (even if my usage is contrary to contemporary usage). In short, Jesus obviously used the expression to refer to the length of time he would be dead. So the real question is "How long was he dead"? Then, "three days and nights" means that long (however long it was).
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"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: Matthew 12:40
Post #80shnarkle,
re: "It doesn't make sense to ask if the phrase 'three days and three nights' could have included at least parts of the days and parts of the nights..."
Actually, I'm asking just the opposite.
re: "It doesn't make sense to ask if the phrase 'three days and three nights' could have included at least parts of the days and parts of the nights..."
Actually, I'm asking just the opposite.