Eternal Hell

[amortalman]

I have two questions primarily for Christians.

1) If your brand of religion teaches that unbelievers will be judged by God and cast into Hell and the Lake of Fire for eternity to suffer there with no possibility of death or escape, is this action by God a just punishment, and why?

2) The second question is purely hypothetical and reaches way out there. If your God gave you permission to do as you please concerning eternal Hell, to keep it, or to abolish it in favor of, say, annihilation, would you keep it or do away with it?

NOTE: In regards to question number one I'm thinking about the story told by Jesus of the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke chapter 16. The Lake of Fire is mentioned in Revelation 20:10-15 and 21:8.

To me, an eternity of suffering in Hell defies logic and any sense of compassion what-so-ever. During my years as a Christian in an evangelical church, I've heard many preachers preface a sermon on Hell by saying they don't like to talk about it and don't like the concept of it but they must preach it because that's what the Bible teaches. I was once a part of a Biblical teaching program for children 2nd through 6th grade. I can only imagine the nightmares some of them had after being told that without Jesus they would go to Hell forever. Someone might argue that it's better that than to go to Hell. But does the fear tactic really work, and if it does, is that the best way, to scare the hell out of them?

In my understanding of the Bible, and what is being taught to millions of people in evangelical churches around the world, there are two kinds of people who will be cast into Hell. Those who have never heard the gospel and those how have rejected the gospel after having heard it. According to that teaching, there are countless millions of poor souls being tormented in Hell right now because they never had an opportunity to hear about Christ. Furthermore, there are hundreds if not thousands that are dying every day and going to Hell for lack of an opportunity to decide. Is that just?

Finally, I'm hopeful that the second question will cut to the Christians heart concerning the doctrine of Hell and reveal the insanity of it. To me, someone who would keep Hell if given the chance to abolish it is a Sadist of the worse kind. But then again, if a Christian says that he would do away with Hell is he demonstrating that he is more merciful than God?

What say you?

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 18 by JehovahsWitness] I have studied the Bible extensively, some would say obsessively and in my opinion Jesus did teach an eternal suffering in hell for those who did not accept him. Would you still accept him even if he had taught such a concept?

I have done the same as you and have found that in my opinion Jesus taught destruction of the soul and not eternal soul.

As far as your question, if hellfire was real and my options were between eternal fire and following Jesus, my choice would be follow Jesus.

What about you? Since I know you love to talk in hypotheticals. Would you follow Jesus even if eternal torture wasn't true?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 21 by 2timothy316]
Interesting that you would submit to what you consider a demonic doctrine if in the end your hide was at stake. Do you believe in the word Jesus above your understanding of his nature? As a child I did believe that I was going to hell for eternity and yet I refused to submit myself to acceptance of him or God. Now had I been in the situation where this doctrine had not been taught perhaps I would have been happy to embrace fellowship and belief. The obsessive reading and study of scripture was no doubt driven by dread and in its absence it is possible that I would have been content to believe without critical observation and obsessive study. But at this stage I know way to much conflicting textual information to believe. It is impossible to believe the Bible as it is an unreliable witness and I do not possess the ability to compartmentalism the conflicts.

[Divine Insight]

What about you? Since I know you love to talk in hypotheticals. Would you follow Jesus even if eternal torture wasn't true?

Follow Jesus? Exactly what is that suppose to mean?

If Jesus supports decent moral values then Jesus should have no problem following me.

I mean seriously. What the heck is it supposed to mean to "follow Jesus".

Christianity doesn't ask us to "follow Jesus" anyway. To the contrary, Christianity proclaims that Jesus was the demigod Son of Yahweh who supposedly demands that we accept Jesus as our sacrificial lamb to pay for our sins.

Not only are we supposed to believe that Yahweh is the one who is demanding this of us, but it's also supposed to be Yahweh who we are supposed to being obeying and NOT Jesus.

In fact, isn't that what Jesus himself supposedly proclaimed?

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

See, even according to Jesus himself, you're not supposed to be following him but rather you are supposed to be doing the will of the Father God who is Yahweh.

As far as I'm concerned, if Jesus is interested in decency and morality then Jesus is already in harmony with me, and of course that makes the opposite true as well automatically.

So if I'm following Jesus then Jesus is following me. We're both going to the same place, (i.e. morality and decency). And if Jesus isn't going there, then there's certainly no reason why I should follow him.

And none of this would have anything at all to do with whether a heaven of a hell exists.

[William]

I have two questions primarily for Christians.

I do not a self identify as a 'Christian' but have an opinion on the subject of Hell...

1) If your brand of religion teaches that unbelievers will be judged by God and cast into Hell and the Lake of Fire for eternity to suffer there with no possibility of death or escape, is this action by God a just punishment, and why?

Through diligent study into all things Astral, I am open to the understanding that hell's exist and people do indeed suffer in them.
It seems that such places are actually creations of human belief systems and since humans are part of consciousness, and consciousness has the ability to make things real through the mind - the collective mind of humanity is something of an apprentice God (as i see it) and if anything is a fault for the creation of hell, it can be sourced within the collective human mind...the buck stops there, in my opinion.

2) The second question is purely hypothetical and reaches way out there. If your God gave you permission to do as you please concerning eternal Hell, to keep it, or to abolish it in favor of, say, annihilation, would you keep it or do away with it?

Do away with it.

However, the processes involved with that are huge. From what I can gather (again from study re Astral stuff) this is going on. It is more of a dismantling process than something which can be dealt with instantly in a destructive manner.
Also the nature of consciousness is eternal. Thus annihilation of the individual consciousness is not an option.

The existence of hell is along the lines of 'we built it and so we will have to deal with it' and in that this has been going on for a long time now.

NOTE: In regards to question number one I'm thinking about the story told by Jesus of the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke chapter 16. The Lake of Fire is mentioned in Revelation 20:10-15 and 21:8.

The story of the rich man and Lazarus may even be based on true events. The lake of fire is a place where some aspects of the collective human consciousness end up...mostly because they asked for it, sometimes just accidentally...it is complicated, and horrific.

To me, an eternity of suffering in Hell defies logic and any sense of compassion what-so-ever.

Ditto. But such is the mind of humans - and there are always horrific activities associated with human behavior at this section of our evolution from ignorance into knowledge.

During my years as a Christian in an evangelical church, I've heard many preachers preface a sermon on Hell by saying they don't like to talk about it and don't like the concept of it but they must preach it because that's what the Bible teaches.

Specifically this is what Jesus is attributed with teaching.
There is of course, differences of opinion on what he meant by 'hell' but generally the accepted version in today's world is the horrific one.

I was once a part of a Biblical teaching program for children 2nd through 6th grade. I can only imagine the nightmares some of them had after being told that without Jesus they would go to Hell forever.

Yes. Specifically did Jesus ever mention that Children would be sent to hell? I don't recall and have the impression that when Jesus spoke of Children, he did so with great compassion and understanding.

Someone might argue that it's better that than to go to Hell.

Many argue that and are looking forward to the experience. Is that a reflex action designed to rebel against god ideas which promote such injustice? Perhaps - but sometimes they seem to go overboard with that.

But does the fear tactic really work, and if it does, is that the best way, to scare the hell out of them?

It depends on what you mean - I assume you mean something along the lines of 'Is that the best way to 'come into the knowledge of GOD - through fear?"

I would say "no" because then you are stuck in a relationship which is fear-based. Respect for a consciousness which is far and beyond that of my own is a wise thing, but that is a different type of 'fear' - if even that word is appropriate in regard to respect.

Guilt is the preferred route but only as a means to an end, otherwise same problem...one can be stuck in a relationship based upon guilt.

Generally then, there are many paths to GOD, but in relation to Jesus and the Father, there is only one way to that aspect/idea of GOD.

Ultimately if the relationship blossoms into Love, that would be the best intent in which to approach GOD...so the dilemma there is that if one associates GOD with someone who will throw conscious beings into a fiery furnace to suffer forever, then how anyone could ever learn to Love someone like that, is beyond the ability of my psyche to grasp.

If hell truly does exist, then GOD does not wish for ME to end up there. I can only speak for myself in this but my understanding of 'what GOD is' is that GOD would not want any individual to end up there.

Humans, alas - are not on the same page with this, and many seem to believe in the Justice of such a concept of eternal pain and suffering. It is insane. More insane than usual human behavior.

In my understanding of the Bible, and what is being taught to millions of people in evangelical churches around the world, there are two kinds of people who will be cast into Hell. Those who have never heard the gospel and those how have rejected the gospel after having heard it. According to that teaching, there are countless millions of poor souls being tormented in Hell right now because they never had an opportunity to hear about Christ. Furthermore, there are hundreds if not thousands that are dying every day and going to Hell for lack of an opportunity to decide. Is that just?

How certain sections of Christendom interpret the bible and preach their interpretations is not a good gauge on the truth.
I would go so far as to say that even the bible is not to be treated as the actual word of GOD.
One cannot stop birds from flying overhead, but one can prevent them from nesting in your hair, yes?

Finally, I'm hopeful that the second question will cut to the Christians heart concerning the doctrine of Hell and reveal the insanity of it. To me, someone who would keep Hell if given the chance to abolish it is a Sadist of the worse kind. But then again, if a Christian says that he would do away with Hell is he demonstrating that he is more merciful than God?

What say you?

Well what I say is that I don't think I could be more merciful than my idea of GOD. I think the whole subject of hell is a black stain on the righteousness of any idea of GOD, but having said that, we still have to run with it, for reasons given at the beginning of my post.

There is an awfully long row to hoe in that - dismantling.

But say now that there was a GOD who could destroy hell in an instant...what to do with all those evil human consciousnesses? It would be like the FEDs abolishing jails - there are some real nasty individuals who exist and need to be restrained in some way so they don't wreck too much havoc.

Such is the nature of the learning-to-be-perfect stage of collective conscious of humanity.

A god in the making or a devil? Decisions, decisions.

[tam]

Peace to you amortalman!

I have two questions primarily for Christians.

Okay.

1) If your brand of religion teaches that unbelievers will be judged by God and cast into Hell and the Lake of Fire for eternity to suffer there with no possibility of death or escape, is this action by God a just punishment, and why?

Religion may teach that unbelievers are cast into Hell and the Lake of Fire, but Christ does not teach this. Nor is this taught even according to what is written.

For instance, you write 'cast into Hell and the Lake of Fire" as if this is the same place. But Hell (hades) is cast INTO the lake of fire, along with death.

We know that death is the last enemy to be destroyed (even according to what is written):

1Corinthians 15:26

The last enemy to be destroyed is death.


Destroyed. Death and Hades are BOTH thrown into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:14); so BOTH death and hades are DESTROYED. Both death and hades are no more.


The doctrine of eternal torment in hell (hades) is false.


There are many other arguments against this false doctrine, but this is the one that the spirit brought to mind today.

2) The second question is purely hypothetical and reaches way out there. If your God gave you permission to do as you please concerning eternal Hell, to keep it, or to abolish it in favor of, say, annihilation, would you keep it or do away with it?

Hypothetically speaking, if the doctrine of eternal hell was not false (even though it is false), and it was possible to switch to annihilation, certainly that is the choice that I would make. (Assuming the people in 'hell' also wanted that... but I can't imagine that they would not want that.)


However, annihilation is the correct teaching anyway, so...

NOTE: In regards to question number one I'm thinking about the story told by Jesus of the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke chapter 16. The Lake of Fire is mentioned in Revelation 20:10-15 and 21:8.

Lazarus and the Rich man is a parable about something else. It cannot be a parable about a literal eternal torment in hell, because a single drop of water to the tongue would not ease a person's pain, if that were the case.

See above with regard to Revelation. The lake of fire is the second death. The second death (the lake of fire) also comes AFTER the judgment.

And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.



No one stands before the judgment seat until the resurrection, and no one is PUNISHED before judgment. Some who are resurrected from the dead have their names written in the lamb's book of life. So how could it be that these ones also would have been punished for centuries? For what?

Remember that Job longed to go to hades (sheol, the grave, the world of the dead) in order to ESCAPE his suffering. Daniel was told to sleep until the time of the end when he would arise and receive his reward. Israel looked forward to the resurrection of the dead, but they weren't going around in fear that everyone (or anyone) who died were being tortured in 'hell'.

To me, an eternity of suffering in Hell defies logic and any sense of compassion what-so-ever.

Agreed.

The idea that it is necessary is based upon a mistaken doctrine that we are immortal and cannot be destroyed. But if that were true, then there would have been no need for us to have to eat from the tree of life, in order to live forever.

During my years as a Christian in an evangelical church, I've heard many preachers preface a sermon on Hell by saying they don't like to talk about it and don't like the concept of it but they must preach it because that's what the Bible teaches.

Unfortunately, all the people listening to those preachers have been misled. Blind leading the blind.

I was once a part of a Biblical teaching program for children 2nd through 6th grade. I can only imagine the nightmares some of them had after being told that without Jesus they would go to Hell forever.

No doubt. My brother was one of those kids, and he shares now how much this terrified him. As a kid, I didn't worry about things I could not control, even though I didn't learn that the doctrine of hell was false until I was an adult.





Peace again to you, and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

See, even according to Jesus himself, you're not supposed to be following him but rather you are supposed to be doing the will of the Father God who is Yahweh.

"This is my Son, my Chosen One. Listen to Him." - God





Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 21 by 2timothy316]
Interesting that you would submit to what you consider a demonic doctrine if in the end your hide was at stake.

Nope. My hide has nothing to do with it. Curious, is that why you follow what you do? Fear for your 'hide'? That's so sad but typical.

Even if eternal torment was real (which it isn't) Jesus would still be better than a rule by anyone else.

Do you believe in the word Jesus above your understanding of his nature?

My understanding of Jesus is what the Bible says. I fully believe the Bible. So my understanding is what the Bible teaches. If I recall you're the one that doesn't believe the Bible is the Word and thus pick and choose what you want to believe about what Jesus taught.

So I answered your question, how about you answer mine. Would you still follow Jesus if there was no eternal torment? What say you? Would you submit to a loving doctrine?

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 7 by Wootah]

Wootah wrote: So what parts of what I said can you agree with?

None of it. If I answered any further I would just be repeating what Jehovah's Witness
said in post 8 and what Divine Insight said in post 7.

[Divine Insight]

See, even according to Jesus himself, you're not supposed to be following him but rather you are supposed to be doing the will of the Father God who is Yahweh.

"This is my Son, my Chosen One. Listen to Him." - God

Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

So?

God said LISTEN to Jesus. So what did Jesus say?

Jesus said:

Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

You're supposed to LISTEN to Jesus, and Jesus is telling you to DO the will of the Father.

So I don't see where your comment changes what I've pointed out. You're still supposed to DO the will of the Father God according to Jesus.

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 10 by 2timothy316]

Hi, 2Timothy3:16

Thanks for your comments. I'm sure you'll get some responses. I'm well aware that there are many different beliefs concerning Hell. I didn't intend to debate the different views. That's why I tried to frame my questions to those Christians who do believe in an eternal Hell and eternal suffering for the condemned. There are millions of them going to evangelical churches every Sunday. I can understand why not many want to approach this subject. It's difficult to defend.