Eternal Hell

[amortalman]

I have two questions primarily for Christians.

1) If your brand of religion teaches that unbelievers will be judged by God and cast into Hell and the Lake of Fire for eternity to suffer there with no possibility of death or escape, is this action by God a just punishment, and why?

2) The second question is purely hypothetical and reaches way out there. If your God gave you permission to do as you please concerning eternal Hell, to keep it, or to abolish it in favor of, say, annihilation, would you keep it or do away with it?

NOTE: In regards to question number one I'm thinking about the story told by Jesus of the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke chapter 16. The Lake of Fire is mentioned in Revelation 20:10-15 and 21:8.

To me, an eternity of suffering in Hell defies logic and any sense of compassion what-so-ever. During my years as a Christian in an evangelical church, I've heard many preachers preface a sermon on Hell by saying they don't like to talk about it and don't like the concept of it but they must preach it because that's what the Bible teaches. I was once a part of a Biblical teaching program for children 2nd through 6th grade. I can only imagine the nightmares some of them had after being told that without Jesus they would go to Hell forever. Someone might argue that it's better that than to go to Hell. But does the fear tactic really work, and if it does, is that the best way, to scare the hell out of them?

In my understanding of the Bible, and what is being taught to millions of people in evangelical churches around the world, there are two kinds of people who will be cast into Hell. Those who have never heard the gospel and those how have rejected the gospel after having heard it. According to that teaching, there are countless millions of poor souls being tormented in Hell right now because they never had an opportunity to hear about Christ. Furthermore, there are hundreds if not thousands that are dying every day and going to Hell for lack of an opportunity to decide. Is that just?

Finally, I'm hopeful that the second question will cut to the Christians heart concerning the doctrine of Hell and reveal the insanity of it. To me, someone who would keep Hell if given the chance to abolish it is a Sadist of the worse kind. But then again, if a Christian says that he would do away with Hell is he demonstrating that he is more merciful than God?

What say you?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 27 by 2timothy316]

You keep accusing me of picking and choosing texts to support a position. The fact that this is possible should be an indication that the Bible is an unreliable witness. You do the same thing insisting that certain texts can not convey the meaning that a literal interpretation would suggest because that would be in conflict with another text that you accept as truth. As to following Christ. Christianity itself is confused to where he is leading. I don't want to be confused. You admit following two different paths in his name. There is no reason to believe that at some point you will not find yet another understanding and take another path and perhaps even others.

[tam]

Peace to you DI...


AND....

The will of the father is that we believe in and listen to His Son.


Christ also said,

"Come, follow me!"


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 25 by tam]

Hello, Tam.

According to what I was taught as a Christian, you are absolutely right that Hell and The Lake of Fire are two different places. Evangelicals believe that Hell is the holding place for all who die apart from Christ until the Great White Throne judgment at the end of the world at which time the lost will be cast into the permanent "Hell", the Lake of Fire. Hell is a place of torment, the abode of the spiritually dead i.e. the rich man in Luke 16. There are probably as many evangelicals who do not believe this is a parable as there are who do. But does it matter? A parable is a story that reflects reality. What Jesus himself is teaching here is that Hell is a place of extreme suffering. If not my literal fire then by something just as bad or worse. The main reason many don't believe that Jesus was telling a parable is because he named the poor man and his name was Lazarus. This seems to indicate that this was a true story involving real people. It's all ridiculous anyway.

[Divine Insight]

Peace to you DI...


AND....

The will of the father is that we believe in and listen to His Son.

Fine, the Son is then still telling us to DO the will of the father. And that's all I pointed out. It was Jesus who said to do the will of the Father, not me.

Christ also said,

"Come, follow me!"

Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

He did not say this to everyone. In fact, he even told his disciples that he often spoke in parables because he didn't want other people to understand what he was saying. Therefore he clearly wasn't asking everyone to follow him.

Also, isn't it somewhat suspicious that Jesus would purposefully try to prevent some humans from understanding a message from God to humans?

Who was God speaking to from the clouds telling people to listen to Jesus if Jesus himself was purposefully deceiving people by speaking in a way that he believed they would not be able to understand?

How do we deal with this barrage of self-contradictions in this dogma?

Do we just ignore them?

[tam]

[Replying to post 34 by Divine Insight]

I am glad you seem to understand that doing the will of the Father and following Christ are the same thing.

If you wish to start a new thread on these further alleged contradictions, then I might come over there and join in. In the meantime I do not wish to derail amortalman's thread further.



Peace to you!

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 15 by onewithhim]

Good comments. But the fact remains that good and intelligent people throughout church history have spent their lives studying the Bible and comparing scripture with scripture and have never changed their long-held beliefs that Hell is a place of literal fire reserved for the Devil and his angels and all those who do not believe in and receive Christ in this life. That's one huge problem for apologists. If the Bible is the word of God as it claims to be why all the division? You would think that God would have made the truth abundantly clear so there would be no doubt among his "children."

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 27 by 2timothy316]

You keep accusing me of picking and choosing texts to support a position. The fact that this is possible should be an indication that the Bible is an unreliable witness.

Nope. Just that you keep using eisegesis in your believe system. And thank you for admitting that you pick and choose text to support your position. It's like an addict admitting they have a problem. The fact that it is possible you use eisegesis in your beliefs means there is such a thing as free choice.

Anyone that says "the Bible is an unreliable witness" trust doctrines that are incorrect. I don't have this problem. You could too.

The Bible is never an unreliable witness. It is the witness for us today. If you are ready to listen to the Bible there is much it can tell you. First you're going to have to dump all the doctrines you have learned. Is that scary? Yep. Will you miss those doctrines? Nope.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 37 by 2timothy316] You keep accusing me of leading the text. lets have an experiment. Here is a text

Joshua 11:19-21New International Version (NIV)

19 Except for the Hivites living in Gibeon, not one city made a treaty of peace with the Israelites, who took them all in battle. 20 For it was the Lord himself who hardened their hearts to wage war against Israel, so that he might destroy them totally, exterminating them without mercy, as the Lord had commanded Moses.

21 At that time Joshua went and destroyed the Anakites from the hill country: from Hebron, Debir and Anab, from all the hill country of Judah, and from all the hill country of Israel. Joshua totally destroyed them and their towns.

Seems self explanatory. God desired to exterminate every man woman and child in the promised land. Obviously when faced with certain destruction the people would surrender. It wouldn't be fair and indeed against Gods code of conduct in the Law for the Israelites to kill those who surrendered. Therefore God stepped in to harden the resolve of the defenders in order that the Israelites could kill them all or nearly all.
Am I leading the text?

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 34 by Divine Insight]

I am glad you seem to understand that doing the will of the Father and following Christ are the same thing.

I don't. The Father God never told anyone to "Follow Christ". And Jesus himself only asked a very few people to "follow him", and to them he was talking literally, not figuratively. He wanted them to actually follow him around physically participating in his religious activism.

Jesus clearly did not ask the masses to "follow him" anywhere, either literally or figuratively. As I had already pointed out, the Gospels have Jesus purposefully talking in parables to even prevent people from understanding what he was saying. That's not even asking them to follow his advice since he's preventing them from hearing his advice.

Also, in this thread the topic has to do with people being cast into hell.

Matthew 13:
[10] And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
[11] He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

So my question to you is this:

"Why was Jesus purposefully speaking in a way that people would not understand?"

Did he want those people to go to hell?

Where is there any love or mercy in that attitude?

Yet more contradictions. And even outright lies. Considering the following:

John 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

According to John 12:47 Jesus came to save the world, not judge the world. But this is in direct contradiction to Matthew 13:11 where Jesus proclaims that for certain people the knowledge of the Kingdom of Heaven is not given to them.

How is that not judging those people to be unfit for this knowledge?

This violates John 12:47 where Jesus says he came to save the world and not judge the world. Apparently according to Matthew 13:11 he has indeed already judged people.

It's just an endless ocean of extreme self-contradictions.

[tam]

Also, in this thread the topic has to do with people being cast into hell.

Okay then.

Matthew 13:
[10] And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
[11] He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

No hell, there.

So my question to you is this:

"Why was Jesus purposefully speaking in a way that people would not understand?"

Did he want those people to go to hell?

What hell? If you mean hades/sheol - the grave, the world of the dead, then in that place the dead are conscious of nothing, and are awaiting the resurrection of the dead. Only after that resurrection are the dead judged (according to what they have done as written in their individual scrolls). If you mean the "Christian" place of eternal torture and suffering, then such a place does not exist.

Please see my earlier post. (Of course, you and I have discussed this before I think).



He did not lie about anything, but that is another topic.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy