[
Replying to Blastcat]
Job questioned God, and LOOK what happened to him, kiddies !!
Let's follow the story please. Job was not described as "questioning God" prior to his test. But he
is shown questioning God for about 30 chapters after. Thus, it would be difficult to make an argument that his questioning God was the reason for his test, as I hear you saying here.
Ok.. someone is going to tell me "the mind of God".
Jesus Christ, it's a story. We are trying to understand a story using the evidence it gives us. No metaphysical leaps please. Stay focused.
Hmmm I never thought of like that.
I thought it was "torture of a worshiper to prove a point to some minion of God".
Structurally there are two parts to the book. There is the prose prologue and epilogue, and then the poetic dialogue which takes up the bulk. I think you are absolutely right that the story is framed by a test (which we need to discern the meaning of). But the poetic dialogue, i.e., the bulk, is all about consoling Job.
It is initiated by the friends coming to do just that. And capped off by Job's statement 42:6 which, again, can be faithfully rendered as a statement of consolation (about dust and ashes).
That's what horrible torture does to a person.
It really does "break him down".
Fun story, isn't it?
Are you trying to understand the book or just criticize it? How about we try to understand it first, okay?
But yes, Job's test (and again, that is something we need to understand before we can criticize it) has this effect. It leads Job to think himself nothing. "Dust and ashes."
AH.. there's the attempted consolation by his FRIENDS.
I guess some of his friends were angry, too.
His friends weren't crazy or evil. God, yes.
Jumping to conclusions here about God (and the friends). Darkening the meaning without a proper understanding (or, if you have a proper understanding, please tell me the meaning of the test, and please do so in a far more compelling way than you did before).
The friends are not angry. If anything, they get angry and frustrated
with Job for not listening to them.
Well, go ahead and assume it if you like.
I'll go by what the story says, instead.
The god who just had Job tortured, humiliated, and had members of his family murdered, ( I think it was the kids? ) gives Job a long chastising speech.
Yes, let's go with what the story says, so please stay focused on that. Nowhere does it say God's intention was to "torture" Job nor to "chastise" him. Citations please.
You are jumping to a conclusion here as much as me, but my reading (unlike yours) fits with the text.
Again, explain to me why God praises Job in 42:7.
How does that fit with the view that God chastises Job?
Oh, it doesn't. That's right.
UPLIFT JOB?
You mean by way of torture?
God goes on and on and on rubbing it in ( AFTER ALL OF THAT TORTURE ) that Job doesn't know as much as God. Yeah.. that's not very "gracious". But coming from the person who is responsible for all of that horrible torture, it's not really surprising, either. In Job, we have a psychopathic and possibly quite psychotic God.
I think the whole point is.. "No matter what torture I put you through, what's real important here is that you love and obey me."
I already laid out this position in contrast to mine in my previous post.
You are not addressing the issues raised but simply restating.
How is this view coherent with Job 42:7?
Why is Job praised?
This is the way that I see the Job story:
1. I consider it a myth.
Good, so do I.
2. I consider it a myth that is quite POSSIBLY used to challenge people to come up with ways to think about moral issues and the like. Or, to come up with SOMETHING clever.
Okay, not following the "something clever" part but I generally agree.
3. So, people come up with LOTS of clever things.
What do you mean "clever things"?
4. The story itself is completely disgusting, and has an evil psycho god who cannot read minds, and who seems to need to prove something to someone by torturing a man he calls good.
How about you think deeper about the test. That is one of the "clever things" we need to discern, and that the book doesn't make obvious.
The satan comes for a reason (from the earth). God sanctions the test
for a reason.
Instead of jumping to "psychotic" why not try to discern it?
5. One thing about this god, though, he insists on being worshiped, no matter what.
Again, tell me how this view that God comes to chastise and blow Job away fits with
God praising Job a few versus later.
That verse, 42:7, is instrumental (another one of those "clever things" IMO). If we can't reconcile it with our view of the story, our view is wrong. You can't reconcile it with your view. Therefore...
6. If I really wanted to, could I come up with great rationalizations and theories about this story? You BETCHA I could. Do I care?.. not too much, no. Do your care? I have to wonder about that. In this thread, if you haven't noticed, I ask if Christians have ANY curiosity about what outsiders to their faith think. But as you might have noticed, I do have a few ideas.. maybe I should write an essay about the Job story from my skeptical agnostic outsider's point of view. Maybe point out how the god in the story is very much like Jame Gumb, AKA "Buffalo Bill" in the Silence of the Lambs.
I don't care? Excuse me? I've asked you some key questions and have so far gotten nothing. You go ahead and rationalize away.
Questions:
1. What is the reason for Job's test?
2. Why does God praise Job?
Go. Rationalize. Give me something truly compelling please, not the messy answer you gave me before that lumped Job with the friends when God was clearly separating them (praising Job and chastising the friends).
7. LOOK what happens when people question God, kiddies ! You don't want to end up like Job, do ya?
Again, a mess. Job doesn't question God until after. Stick to the story. Read closer.
Next time, please cite the passage, and mention where I can find the passage.
theophile wrote:
I am NOT a Bible scholar, my friend.
Where does it use the word : "Magnificent" to describe Job?
Could you quote where it says that?
It's so clear you haven't hardly read the book. I don't know how you can make the claims you do.
I shouldn't need to reference where Behemoth and Leviathan are described in majestic terms. See Job 40-41.
Again,
Behemoth and Leviathan are described in majestic terms, and Job, at the start of chapter 40, is put side by side with Behemoth as creations of God..
The point, not to make Job feel small, but to raise him up.
Job is never called "majestic" directly. If God did that, the "cleverness" of the book, and its need for discernment, would all be lost. It would be like giving away the trick to a puzzle.
Yeah, I get it that your translation isn't "standard":
Job 42:6 (KJ21)
6 Therefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.�
Job really really really gets it.
After all of what he went through, Job ABHORS himself.
Look at the Hebrew. Consult some scholars. Good one on this is Carol Newsom. She lays out 6 or so possible renderings of this verse.
ANOTHER QUESTION FOR ATHEISTS:
How can you possibly claim such things of biblical literature when it is evident you haven't given it the time?
You expect such high standards of scientific knowledge. I'm sure if it was Aristotle or Marx or whoever else you would require intense, years of study before making such bold claims. Why do you think you can write off the bible with a brief scan of its text? Without diving into the source languages?
Without, like good, free-thinking atheists, questioning standard translations and teachings?
Jesus Christ.
