Was Jesus' death necessary? If so, why?

[Justin108]

Was Jesus' death necessary? In what way did Jesus' death/sacrifice benefit humanity? Could God not achieve what he intended without Jesus dying?

[Justin108]

If you notice I said "rightfully" or justifiably.

Please explain to me how torturing and killing an innocent man (Jesus) is either "rightful" or "justifiable".

God never violates his own principles of what is just and right nor does he go back on his word, so in order to forgive the sin incurred by Adam the debt of that sin had to be paid for. The price for sin is death

Regardless of who's death it is?

Let's compare

Court: this man is guilty of heinous crimes and the penalty is death
Me: who's death?
Court: his death of course. Why would we kill anyone else?

God: this man is guilty of sin and the penalty is death
Me: who's death?
God: doesn't matter


Which of these justice systems seem more just to you?

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

Any god (or God) that needs or wants for anything (including, but not limited to 'need this for that' to happen or 'wants X to love them') isn't much of a god as far as I'm concerned.
Both a need and want strikes me as something very human. Why would a thing that created everything, knows everything, is everywhere (blah blah blah) would have any want or need? That points to something missing from their 'life'. That's not a god to me
So I don't think the biblical god needs or wants anything. Nothing we could do would change its plan or impact it in any way.

Who gets to define what a god is? Why do we automatically flag away a god as not being a real god because it has wants or needs? Do gods have to be perfect?
If we were to go by your logic then there could never be any gods at all. But yet just about every god ever worshipped (imaginary or not) is needy, egotistical and bloodthirsty. So why would you ever think that a real god wouldn't be?

It seems that every god that was every believed in had a huge ego. Just about every god had an insatiable appetite for sacrifices and worship. Are there any gods that aren't like that?

[Clownboat]

[Replying to post 1 by Justin108]

Any god (or God) that needs or wants for anything (including, but not limited to 'need this for that' to happen or 'wants X to love them') isn't much of a god as far as I'm concerned.
Both a need and want strikes me as something very human. Why would a thing that created everything, knows everything, is everywhere (blah blah blah) would have any want or need? That points to something missing from their 'life'. That's not a god to me
So I don't think the biblical god needs or wants anything. Nothing we could do would change its plan or impact it in any way.

Who gest to define what a god is? Why do we automatically flag away a god as not being a real god because it has wants or needs? Do gods have to be perfect?
If we were to go by your logic then there could never be any gods at all. But yet just about every god ever worshipped (imaginary or not) is needy, egotistical and bloodthirsty. So why would you ever think that a real god wouldn't be?

It seems that every god that was every believed in had a huge ego. Just about every god had an insatiable appetite for sacrifices and worship. Are there any gods that aren't like that?

Why are the gods so human?

If the gods are just human concepts like I suspect, it would probably be hard to find one that doesn't have human traits.

The fact that most/all(?) god concepts have human traits, should lead us to the conclusion that all or most are just human inventions.

[OnceConvinced]

Why are the gods so human?

Maybe its us humans that are like God? After all he apparently made us in his image. So perhaps we as humans just adopt his weaknesses?

It could be that God is indeed bloodthirsty and can only be appeased by innocent beings being brutally slaughtered. Perhaps God thrives on this?

Or perhaps sin is like his kryptonite, so he has to do whatever he can to get rid of sin. He NEEDS to have blood and death to overcome this kryptonite.

Or maybe he just WANTS death. Maybe he WANTS blood spilt so made up a rule that all sin had to be punished by the death of an innocent being.

Maybe that is what gods are? Bloodthirsty, cruel deities who get pleasure out of the suffering of the innocent? So these gods make up rules to fulfil those desires or needs of suffering.

Here's another thought. Perhaps to deal with the problem of this sin kryptonite once and for all, God came up with a plan which meant having his son slaughtered. We now all have to bow to the son so that sin can be neutralised and no longer be a threat to God?

[ttruscott]

Let's compare

Court: this man is guilty of heinous crimes and the penalty is death
Me: who's death?
Court: his death of course. Why would we kill anyone else?

God: this man is guilty of sin and the penalty is death
Me: who's death?
God: doesn't matter


Which of these justice systems seem more just to you?

This strawman argument so far misses the mark of Christian doctrine as to be almost incomprehensible. It definitely mattered who died for the sinful elect.

God: this man is guilty of sin and the penalty is death
Me: who's death?
God: My death... the man owes my legal system the debt of a death. I will pay it for him by dying myself in his stead as is my right because it is my legal system.

[Justin108]

Let's compare

Court: this man is guilty of heinous crimes and the penalty is death
Me: who's death?
Court: his death of course. Why would we kill anyone else?

God: this man is guilty of sin and the penalty is death
Me: who's death?
God: doesn't matter


Which of these justice systems seem more just to you?

This strawman argument so far misses the mark of Christian doctrine as to be almost incomprehensible. It definitely mattered who died for the sinful elect.

God: this man is guilty of sin and the penalty is death
Me: who's death?
God: My death... the man owes my legal system the debt of a death.

Who's death? Does the man owe his own death? Or someone else's death?

I will pay it for him by dying myself in his stead as is my right because it is my legal system.

If I understand you correctly... you're saying since it's God's legal system, he can change things around as he likes?

[Monta]

Was Jesus' death necessary? In what way did Jesus' death/sacrifice benefit humanity? Could God not achieve what he intended without Jesus dying?

Man's wicked ways have blocked the path to God and the influx from heaven could not reach him (man).
Another Man was needed to take it upn himself to restore the path.
Divine truth, the Word in human form as Jesus took it upon Himself to resrore the path back to God providing open communicaten - we can approach God directly.

Through the humanity of Christ we approach the Divinity.

[Redhawk]

Was Jesus' death necessary? In what way did Jesus' death/sacrifice benefit humanity? Could God not achieve what he intended without Jesus dying?

"The soul that sins shall die." - Ezekiel 18:20

This is God's law. It must be obeyed. We all must obey human laws and we must all obey God's law. The mystery of the death of Jesus Christ can only be answered by looking into the law.

Jesus' death was necessary. Since God is not willing that all men should die for their sins, He died instead of us as punishment for sin. HIS death was a sacrifice for sin.

In the book of Exodus the pattern of sacrifice that God declares is revealed. Hebrews had been slaves in Egypt for four hundred years. To release them from slavery, God destroyed the nation of Egypt(1). The final plague was death of all first born. To avoid this judgment God said to paint the blood of a lamb on the door posts and lintel of a house. Those that accepted the blood were saved from death. Those that did not apply the blood died.

In what way did Jesus' death benefit humanity? We are forgiven of breaking God's law. Jesus' death paid the penalty of breaking God's law.(2)

Could God achieve what He intended without Jesus' death?

The top post quoted above does not state or imply what God's intent might be, therefore it is not possible to address this question directly. It is poorly worded. The Bible clearly states that sin against God will not be tolerated or excused. The penalty for sin is death. Since blood is the life of a man, God requires blood to be shed as a payment for sin. BUT God is not willing to cast all men into godless eternity and has provided payment for sin in the man Jesus. All those who accept Christ into their lives thus accept the sacrifice HE made upon the cross.

Those that don't - have rejected God's only provision for salvation from judgment and are subject to judgment of death which is upon them.

MY Question would therefore be to ask - Since God demands death for sin, exactly how would forgiveness be arranged without payment of this penalty? All human cultures have laws, the violation of which is a penalty of prison or death. There is no exception and there is no forgiveness in the courts of man. But there IS forgiveness in the court of Heaven because Jesus can be accepted as payment for breaking God's law instead of us.

How would you arrange it? The law is the law. How would you pay for it without Christ's death?

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft...
(1) In a similar fashion, God destroyed the United States for the sin of slavery during our civil war. Slavery is a sin which is punishable by judgment of a nation.

(2) No human court allows for forgiveness. When a human law is broken a man must pay the penalty. There is no forgiveness.

[Justin108]

Another Man was needed to take it upn himself to restore the path.

Why? How exactly does the death of a man restore a path? What's the logic in this process?

[Justin108]

"The soul that sins shall die." - Ezekiel 18:20

This is God's law. It must be obeyed.

Jesus dying for our sins does not obey Ezekiel 18:20

"The soul that sins shall die." - Ezekiel 18:20

Was Jesus' soul the soul that sins? No. So how does Jesus' death obey Ezekiel 18:20?

Jesus' death was necessary. Since God is not willing that all men should die for their sins...

If God was not willing to let all men die for their sins, why did he make it his law in the first place?

He died instead of us as punishment for sin

Why was this necessary? Why not simply forgive us without dying in our place?

HIS death was a sacrifice for sin.

A sacrifice to who?

In what way did Jesus' death benefit humanity? We are forgiven of breaking God's law. Jesus' death paid the penalty of breaking God's law.(2)

No it didn't. The penalty was that "The soul that sins shall die". Jesus was not the soul that sinned, ergo the penalty remains unpaid.

The Bible clearly states that sin against God will not be tolerated or excused. The penalty for sin is death.

Yes. The death of "the soul that sins"

Since blood is the life of a man, God requires blood to be shed as a payment for sin.

God is omnipotent. He requires nothing

BUT God is not willing to cast all men into godless eternity

Then why did he make that law in the first place?

All human cultures have laws, the violation of which is a penalty of prison or death. There is no exception and there is no forgiveness in the courts of man.

If a man was convicted of multiple rapes and murders and was sentenced to death, but then his mother shows up to court and says "I love my son. Set him free and kill me instead", would a court allow this? Would you think it just if this woman gets killed in his place while he goes free?

But there IS forgiveness in the court of Heaven because Jesus can be accepted as payment for breaking God's law instead of us.

I can forgive people without demanding they pay me first. I have that ability. Why doesn't God? How is it I am capable of doing something that God cannot?

How would you arrange it? The law is the law. How would you pay for it without Christ's death?

Christ's death isn't paying for it. Ezekiel specifically demands "the soul that sinned" to die, not just "whoever is willing". Jesus does not meet the requirements to pay this penalty and so the penalty remains unpaid.

(1) In a similar fashion, God destroyed the United States for the sin of slavery during our civil war. Slavery is a sin which is punishable by judgment of a nation.

Are you forgetting the fact that the Bible openly condones slavery?

(2) No human court allows for forgiveness. When a human law is broken a man must pay the penalty.

What court would allow an innocent man to take up the penalty of a guilty man? If I went to court and said "my brother is a rapist, but take me to prison instead and set him free", what court would allow this?