Jehovah’s Witnesses only ones that will be saved?????

[Donray]

Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that only 144,000 people will go to heaven. God chooses these 144,000 individuals, the process began with the first century Christians and was completed in the year 1935. Of course from 1879 (the year the Watchtower started) till 1935 only faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses were chosen for this special role. All faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses not chosen to be among the 144,000 elite that go to heaven (those joining the Watchtower after 1935) will spend eternity on earth. All other people on the earth will be destroyed at war of Armageddon here on earth. This would also include any Jehovah's Witnesses who has been disfellowshipped or is otherwise unfaithful to the Watchtower and has not worked his or her way back into the good graces of the Watchtower by the time of Armageddon.

If one believes the JWs all other Christians and everyone that is not a JW will not go to heaven or live on the Earth after Armageddon.

Question for debate is JW the only true Christin religion or is it some type of cult that calls itself Christian?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 180 by tam]

You posted:

This truth, however, flies in the face of WTS doctrine, which insists that only certain members make up this 144 000, and that only those ones partake of the body and blood of Christ. They teach that everyone else (most if not all of those who are left on the earth today in that organization) are NOT to partake of the body and blood of Christ. So Christ is disobeyed and denied at the memorial every year - disobeying His command to eat and drink of Him and to keep doing this (eating and drinking) in remembrance of Him, in lieu of obeying men rather than God (who said to listen to His Son) - and the people call this good. (Isaiah 5:20)

When a wrong turning is made, priorities change, and one thing leads to another.

[onewithhim]

Peace to you,

The 144 000 is a literal number. The 12 000 from each tribe is a literal number. The 12 listed tribes are literally those 12 tribes as well. (The Jews make up a portion of Israel - two tribes: Judah and Benjamin; but God does not forget the other ten tribes, despite the world forgetting them, the Jews denying them, or them even forgetting themselves).

That 144 000 is the number of Israel that God has RESERVED for Himself. So that a remnant of Israel (literal) is guaranteed. God does NOT forget Israel (literal). This I learned from my Lord.



The 144 000 is part of the Great Crowd (a number that no one could count, as John reports in Revelation). I used to think that these were two groups, though they became one, but a dear sister in Christ received from Him that the 144 000 is a subset of the great crowd. And that makes sense, since the Great Crowd is made up of EVERY tribe (which would necessarily include those 12 tribes of Israel), nation, people and tongue. Not every OTHER tribe, nation, people and tongue.


But 144 000 spots are reserved for literal Israel, 12000 from those literal twelve tribes.


This is the significance of that number and those tribes being listed.

**


This truth, however, flies in the face of WTS doctrine, which insists that only certain members make up this 144 000, and that only those ones partake of the body and blood of Christ. They teach that everyone else (most if not all of those who are left on the earth today in that organization) are NOT to partake of the body and blood of Christ. So Christ is disobeyed and denied at the memorial every year - disobeying His command to eat and drink of Him and to keep doing this (eating and drinking) in remembrance of Him, in lieu of obeying men rather than God (who said to listen to His Son) - and the people call this good. (Isaiah 5:20)

Yet Christ said:

"Truly, truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of Man, you have no life in you."



And:



"Anyone who loves ME, will obey MY commands. My Father will love them and we will come and make our home within them."





May those who wish them be given ears to hear, and may all who thirst and all who seek, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life!"



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

Literal, natural Israel reneged on their obligations to remain loyal to their God. They would not stop worshipping pagan gods, they treated their own people miserably, and then---the coup de gras---they rejected their own Messiah. Jehovah had told them repeatedly that they would be hugely punished if they didn't start listening to Him and stop their evil ways. This happened when Jesus was rejected by the leaders of the nation.

Thereafter, "Israel" came to be SPIRITUAL Israel. Paul stated that everyone who accepted Christ was really Abraham's "seed". Galatians 3:27-29; 6:14-16. How long are you going to disregard this?

[tam]

Disregard what?

That we who show the faith of Abraham are also his seed? I am not now, nor have I ever, disregarded that.

How much more so those who are of literal Israel, who show the faith of Abraham, and accept their Messiah? Who love Him and so obey His commands? Who are themselves a part of the new covenant?

Gentiles are grafted IN among the natural branches. But there are natural branches as well.


Indeed, 144 000 places are specifically reserved for the natural branches (12 000 from each the 12 specifically listed tribes - that is the meaning of listing those 12 tribes).



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[onewithhim]

Disregard what?

That we who show the faith of Abraham are also his seed? I am not now, nor have I ever, disregarded that.

How much more so those who are of literal Israel, who show the faith of Abraham, and accept their Messiah? Who love Him and so obey His commands? Who are themselves a part of the new covenant?

Gentiles are grafted IN among the natural branches. But there are natural branches as well.


Indeed, 144 000 places are specifically reserved for the natural branches (12 000 from each the 12 specifically listed tribes - that is the meaning of listing those 12 tribes).



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

EVERYONE who accepts Christ and has been anointed by God to rule with Christ is "Abraham's seed," heirs with a promise. That includes natural Jews, who made up all of the earliest Christian congregation. Individual natural Jews are a part of Christ's co-rulers, the 144,000. But the 144,000 is not ALL natural Jews. As Paul said: "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor freeman, there is neither male nor female; for you are ALL one in union with Christ Jesus. Moreover, if you belong to Christ, you are really Abraham's seed, heirs with reference to a promise." (Galatians 3:28,29)

So you insist on taking everything in Revelation literally? You insist on saying that the 144,000 are all natural Jews? Then explain to me what Revelation 5:9,10 means. These are the same ones who are standing on Mt. Zion with the Lamb at Rev. 14:1. So answer that: What does Revelation 5:9,10 mean if all of the 144,000 are literally natural Jews?

[postroad]

[Replying to post 184 by onewithhim] have you been anointed by God?

[tam]

Peace to you one,

But the 144,000 is not ALL natural Jews.

Of course not. The 144 000 is made up of the listed TWELVE tribes, not just the two tribes (Judah and Benjamin) that make up the Jews.

So you insist on taking everything in Revelation literally?

Where did I do that?

You insist upon taking the whole number literally, but the individual parts of the number symbolically (because it does not fit with the wts doctrine). You (well, they: the wts) make the part that fits their doctrine literal, and the part that doesn't fit their doctrine, symbolic. So the 144 000 is literal, but the 12000 from each of the twelve tribes is somehow symbolic, and so are the twelve tribes themselves.

You insist on saying that the 144,000 are all natural Jews?

I never once said that.

There are 12 tribes listed. Not just one (or two, including Benjamin in the Jews).

Then explain to me what Revelation 5:9,10 means. These are the same ones who are standing on Mt. Zion with the Lamb at Rev. 14:1.

The Great Crowd is described as being from every tribe, language, nation and tongue... exactly the same as those described at Revelation 5:9, 10.

So answer that: What does Revelation 5:9,10 mean if all of the 144,000 are literally natural Jews?

The 144 000 are literal Israel. Not just literal Jews.

Regardless of that, Revelation 5:9, 10 means exactly what it says. That with His blood, Christ has purchased men from every tribe, nation, tongue and people, and they will reign as kings and priests with Him in His Kingdom.


It cannot be referring only to the 144 000 because there are more tribes than just the 12 listed in the 144000.



The WTS teaches that only these 144 000 (according to their interpretation of what the 144 000 is) should partake, but all other Christians should not. Where did Christ ever say that some of us should eat and drink of His body and blood, and some of us should not? If He never said or taught that, then who are you listening to?


The truth that my Lord has taught me (and not just me) does not require me (or anyone) to disobey Him.





Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Hector Barbosa]

[Replying to post 173 by JehovahsWitness]

Did you understand that although the we believe the overal number (144,000) to be the literal limit on the size of government, that the 12,000 x12 is symbolic in that those going to heaven will not be divided in 12 groups of tribes. The 144,000 therefore is not made up of literal Jews (descendants of Abraham) and they are NOT divided into 12 literal division of any race or tribe?

I am not sure if I did. I get about the organization or government, and symbolism. But I do not get about the notion of 144.000 exactly going to heaven, but I have likely misunderstood that point, which is why I appreciate you asking.

I hate not understanding something

[Hector Barbosa]

[Replying to post 175 by JehovahsWitness]

Ok thanks for that explanation JW. What you explain here makes total sense to me now. Thank you!

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 173 by JehovahsWitness]

Did you understand that although the we believe the overal number (144,000) to be the literal limit on the size of government, that the 12,000 x12 is symbolic in that those going to heaven will not be divided in 12 groups of tribes. The 144,000 therefore is not made up of literal Jews (descendants of Abraham) and they are NOT divided into 12 literal division of any race or tribe?

I am not sure if I did. I get about the organization or government, and symbolism. But I do not get about the notion of 144.000 exactly going to heaven, but I have likely misunderstood that point, which is why I appreciate you asking.

I hate not understanding something

Okay so you understand that those that go to heaven go to be in a governement? [ ] check?

You understand that the size of that government is literally limited in size to 144,00 [ ] check?

You understand that those individual are not all descendents of Abraham but from every tribe and nation [ ] check?


(I'm trying to find exactly what you don't understand so I can address it, can you tell me if the three points above are clear).

[Hector Barbosa]

[Replying to post 171 by Hector Barbosa]

[Replying to post 169 by JehovahsWitness]

Quote:
While most Christian groups teach that everyone (without limit) will go to heaven and presumably rule with Christ (or play harps for all eternity), does that really make sense?

You wrote:

No I agree it does not, but I have difficulty making sense of exactly 144.000 and 12.000 of each of 12 tribes to be saved too.
Further I do not get the impression that either of these two doctrines are really taught in the bible.

I do not get that impression either.

What, for you, is the main problem each presents?

The main problem both represent as I see it is the freedom to choose.

I mean knowing myself and with everyone I feel I have come to know, I see good and bad which if magnified could technically make all of us anything from angels to demons or at least heroes to zeroes.

So it makes no sense for me if the Devil being a high ranking Angel, could fall from his position if one of the 144.000 could not too.

And examples going the other way has been seen too.

I mean look at the almost 360 degree turn Paul made from being Saul. Peter, Moses, Job and many others too made quite radical changes.

So that would suggest to me that as long as you are living and is not perfect there is room to change both to the better and to the worse.