Jehovah’s Witnesses only ones that will be saved?????

[Donray]

Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that only 144,000 people will go to heaven. God chooses these 144,000 individuals, the process began with the first century Christians and was completed in the year 1935. Of course from 1879 (the year the Watchtower started) till 1935 only faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses were chosen for this special role. All faithful Jehovah’s Witnesses not chosen to be among the 144,000 elite that go to heaven (those joining the Watchtower after 1935) will spend eternity on earth. All other people on the earth will be destroyed at war of Armageddon here on earth. This would also include any Jehovah's Witnesses who has been disfellowshipped or is otherwise unfaithful to the Watchtower and has not worked his or her way back into the good graces of the Watchtower by the time of Armageddon.

If one believes the JWs all other Christians and everyone that is not a JW will not go to heaven or live on the Earth after Armageddon.

Question for debate is JW the only true Christin religion or is it some type of cult that calls itself Christian?

[Hector Barbosa]

[Replying to post 189 by JehovahsWitness]

Okay so you understand that those that go to heaven go to be in a governement? [ ] check?

You understand that the size of that government is literally limited in size to 144,00 [ ] check?

You understand that those individual are not all descendents of Abraham but from every tribe and nation [ ] check?


(I'm trying to find exactly what you don't understand so I can address it, can you tell me if the three points above are clear).

Yes to the first two questions. The third question I get the impression there is talk of 12 tribes or nation with 12.000, so I don't know if that is correctly understood.

What I am trying to understand is if the 144.000 can fall from their position and new ones can replace them, and if the 144.000 are the only ones going to heaven and so guaranteed a place which is impossible for others to achieve.

Otherwise. I think the rest makes sense to me

[JehovahsWitness]

So it makes no sense for me if the Devil being a high ranking Angel, could fall from his position if one of the 144.000 could not too

Excuse me, I know you are not speaking to me, but I just wanted to point out (in case you misunderstood what I said) that Jehovah's Witnesses do not believe that anyone chosen to be in this number "could not fall"; if they fall they will be replaced.

I'll refer you to the first paragraph I wrote a little earlier (link below)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 05#p846605

What I am trying to understand is if the 144.000 can fall from their position and new ones can replace them....

Yes that is correct

...and if the 144.000 are the only ones going to heaven

That is correct.

... and so guaranteed a place which is impossible for others to achieve.

No they are not "guaranteed a place". They are offered a place, the place is reserved for them on condition they remain faithful to the end of their lives and fulfill their Christian commission. If at any moment they fail with regard to their calling, the offer will be withdrawn and the place offered to someone else (so that the predetermined number remains at 144,000).

[Hector Barbosa]

[Replying to post 177 by onewithhim]

Excellent post mate! you clarified what I was unsure about with Paradise and Heaven and the 144.000.

But what you wrote gave me a question more

Does anyone really have the desire to go to heaven?

Don't we really want to continue to live here and not die?

Nope not really for me. If heaven is the best, that is what I want. Why should I want less that the best? Earth life is not that great, I can give up ice cream and apple pie if I am can have something which taste better and is more healthy

No one likes to think of their day of death. It's not pleasant, as it should be if they were really excited about going into the spirit world where they would do----what?

It doesn't last long and then its over, what is a short pain to a long time of greater joy? I mean that is like getting a shot from the doctor to feel better, not a big deal to me. I will take the shot. I am not that worried about a little pain to a greater gain. Bring it on! I am a half-dead pirate already what do I have to loose?

Nah. I think people want to live right here and be able to do what they like to do. Fish. Ski. Eat. Swim. Plant gardens. Golf. Restore a car. Have physical relations with a mate. None of that is done in heaven. Why do YOU want to go to heaven?

Better fish? Freedom to fly? No Trump, Hitler or disease?

I could go on, but then I would just appear as a pirate who has difficulty tasting apples

[Hector Barbosa]

[Replying to post 192 by JehovahsWitness]

Good! Thanks JW. Then I believe you and onewithhim has clarified my confusion and what you believe makes more sense to me now.

So the 144.000 is really more about a number of organization, not a sure election to heaven which favors a few over others.

That makes more sense.

So much better to get the water straight from the source than in bottles given by others with false labels on it

[JehovahsWitness]

I get the impression there is talk of 12 tribes or nation with 12.000, so I don't know if that is correctly understood

Revelation does indeed speak about the number being made up of 12,000 from each 12 tribes. But that same passage speaks about them being virgins and male. If we are to take that literally it would be in direct contradiction to verses that speak of men and WOMEN being spirit anointed (meaning chosen to be in that government in heaven). And what about Peter, one of the 12 Apostles, whose names are written on heavenly Jerusalem. Yet he was a married man and it stretches the imagination beyond the credible that he was married and remained a literal virgin.

However the above features make sense when we remember that other bible writers referred to "spiritual" virgins, meaning people that kept loyal to God's service. And all the chosen ones in the congregation being Christ's "bride", symbolically speaking of men and women being a "bride" (female). The bible also speaks about being "spiritual Israelites", Israelites on the inside even though not descendants of Abraham at all, viewed as Abraham's children by God because they have been included in the fulfillment of a promise made to Abraham. There is indication that Revelation was speaking of these "spiritual" Israelites since the list in Revelation does not correspond to the literal listing of the tribes of Israel

So when we stop looking at EVERY FEATURE in Revelation as literal and view them in the light of other bible verses we can understand that some features are symbolic. In light of the above, could it be that the 12,000 from each tribe is symbolic of equality and justice for all "spiritual" Israelites?

Symbolic of "equality"? In the literal 12 tribes, some were much larger than others; Ephraim for example was a very large tribe while the Benjamites were so small in number they nearly died out completely. But the Revelation speaks about 12,000 from each tribe, not giving any one tribe the advantage over another; perfectly symmetrical. Symmetry and balance (like Lady Justice and her scales) being symbolic of justice.

In short, the government is limited in size (that's logical) the repatition of the members of that government being literal men and literal virgins and chosen from literal tribes is not but it does reflect other scriptures teaching biblical principles.

[JehovahsWitness]

That makes more sense.

So much better to get the water straight from the source than in bottles given by others with false labels on it

Indeed. These are some pretty deep topics. The overall picture is simple, a child of 5 could understand the basic message of a paradise earth and a new ruling government, but bible prophecy is not simple at all, and takes some time to grasp. At least it did for me, but I'm not the brightest penny (especially when it comes to bible chronology and time prophecies).


Kudos for you for digging until you found what you needed.


JW

[JJ50]

[Replying to post 1 by Donray]

The JW is a very unpleasant cult. Years ago a couple of its members when they called at my door told me my baby son would have been better off dead than receiving a blood transfusion which saved his life!

[JehovahsWitness]

Regarding heavenly hope, in my experience when I ask people to actually describe the things they imagine heaven to be like, they are usually describing the paradise earth and calling it heaven.

- no sickness [ ] check, there will be no sickness in the paradise earth
- get to see my dead loved ones again. [ ] check: we call that the resurrection, it will happen on earth
- everything clean and beautiful: [ ] check: The earth in top condition is breathtakingly beautiful
- to be at one with God: [ ] to a degree we Jehovah's Witnesses have that now, we enjoy a close intimate relationship with our creator. And yes, in the paradise (on earth) we will be closer to him still, after all, Adam spoke with God literally hearing his voice, why not us.

No Trump, Hitler or disease?

I'm in no position to judge President Trump as an individual but if he does make it, he most certainly will not be ruling any part of the earth and will have to comform to God's standards and bow to the king (Jesus). Same for Hitler if He's bought back (which I doubt but again, I'm not the judge). Re: disease, see above.

We'll have it all in the paradise, right here on earth!

Better fish? Freedom to fly?

I know you're joking but who knows?! Jehovah stopped adding new animal creations on the 6th day, but who knows if he'll decide to make new fish or new and wonderful creatures for our delight... and who knows what we humans will invent with perfect brains and an eternity to use them! A way to defy gravity that doesn't involve being in a big metal contraption or attached to a balloon? Space travel will be facinating for some. The sky will quite literally be our limit.

Now, I'm not saying I wouldn't like to go to heaven, but only for a visit, personally I would want to come back down here, after an extended tour and of course an audience with my Creator. But if (as seems to be the case) that is not am option, paradise on earth suits me just fine.

JW

Further reading: What will go when God's kingdom comes?
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/402017361#h=25

[tam]

Peace to you Hector and to you all,

So much better to get the water straight from the source than in bottles given by others with false labels on it

Agreed, 100%.


If one wants pure water straight from the source, then one must come to Christ. He is the source and the one from whom we receive pure water. Undiluted and unsullied by men.


And no organization or religion/sect is the truth. Those are the bottles with false labels on them.

CHRIST is the Truth.


"I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through ME."



**

I understand that you may have simply been referring to having jw doctrines explained by jws, being better than having jw doctrines explained by someone outside the religion. Or RCC doctrines being better explained by RCC members, rather than those outside the religion. Or Mormon doctrines being explained by mormons, etc, etc. This is not necessarily true. Regardless, some of these label themselves the truth, and that would make them bottles with false labels, giving impure water, yes?



We have hundreds (if not more) denominations just in Christendom, because people look to men (or anything) before and/or over Christ; drinking from various sources other than Christ.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Hector Barbosa]

[Replying to post 195 by JehovahsWitness]

Revelation does indeed speak about the number being made up of 12,000 from each 12 tribes. But that same passage speaks about them being virgins and male. If we are to take that literally it would be in direct contradiction to verses that speak of men and WOMEN being spirit anointed (meaning chosen to be in that government in heaven). And what about Peter, one of the 12 Apostles, whose names are written on heavenly Jerusalem. Yet he was a married man and it stretches the imagination beyond the credible that he was married and remained a literal virgin.

However the above features make sense when we remember that other bible writers referred to "spiritual" virgins

Yeah good point, tough to believe a literal verse suggesting that there is 12.000 virgins in this world

My main problem is that I have a difficult time even grasping a concept of "spiritual" virgins