Death in the Bible is described as a sleep.

[Checkpoint]

Scripture often refers to dead people as having "fallen asleep", or being in a state of "sleep".

What do you do with such and similar expressions?

Do they merely convey a euphemism, or do they have the effect of conveying a specific truth about what death is, as you see it?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 8 by JehovahsWitness]
Deflected again. Why must everything be so complicated? Is correct belief essential to salvation? Is correct belief demonstrated in multiple denominations?

JW didn't deflect anything. How much clearer could it be? Far from being complicated, JW explained how simple the truth is. Jesus Christ is the reason that the dead will rise again, and rise to life once again on this earth, where humans were created to live in the first place. Anyone who wants to accept the truth of Jesus' sacrifice can enjoy the wonders surrounding the resurrection of the dead.


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[postroad]

[Replying to post 11 by onewithhim]
Why not simply admit that the truth is found only within your organization and salvation begins with the only valid baptism from the same?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 11 by onewithhim]
Why not simply admit that the truth is found only within your organization and salvation begins with the only valid baptism from the same?

JW already said that the truth is recognized and preached by Jehovah's organization alone. What the status would be of some individual members of other churches is something only Jehovah would know.


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[postroad]

[Replying to post 13 by onewithhim]
Deflecting again. How could anyone be saved apart from the true religion of true belief and God's only authorized representatives on earth?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 8 by JehovahsWitness]
Deflected again. Why must everything be so complicated? Is correct belief essential to salvation? Is correct belief demonstrated in multiple denominations?

JW didn't deflect anything. How much clearer could it be? Far from being complicated, JW explained how simple the truth is. Jesus Christ is the reason that the dead will rise again, and rise to life once again on this earth, where humans were created to live in the first place. Anyone who wants to accept the truth of Jesus' sacrifice can enjoy the wonders surrounding the resurrection of the dead.
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What JW posted was a reminder of, and/or another version of, what the Roman Catholic Church has claimed for centuries.

[Pierac]

Scripture often refers to dead people as having "fallen asleep", or being in a state of "sleep".

What do you do with such and similar expressions?

Do they merely convey a euphemism, or do they have the effect of conveying a specific truth about what death is, as you see it?

Many give a "yes" answer in some form, whether or not they believe in God.

Are they right or are they wrong? What does the Bible have to say about this issue, in your view?

And what is a "soul"?

One must first distinguish... between Spirit and the Soul...

The Soul does not immediately return to God upon death, but the Spirit does! As Ecclesiastes 12:7 and Psalms 146:4 clearly teaches! (see below) Read Psalms 146:4 Note these verses below do not teach that only the body returns to the earth but his “thoughts� or (mental life) perishes.

(Ecc 12:7) and the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit (Breath rûaḥ) returns to God who gave it.

(Psa 146:4) His spirit departs, he returns to the earth; In that very day his thoughts perish.

Other verses are…

(Gen 2:7) The Spirit is the breath of life

(Job 7:21) "Why then do You not pardon my transgression And take away my iniquity?

For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."
(Psa 104:29) You hide Your face, they are dismayed; You take away their spirit, they expire And return to their dust. 30 You send forth Your Spirit, they are created; And You renew the face of the ground.

Spirit - The word spirit usually brings to mind to most a ghostly image that separates from our bodies at death and departs to either heaven or hell. This definition which most of us are so familiar with is 100% Greek philosophy. It is pure Platonism. To Greek philosophers the words "spirit" and "soul" are interchangeable, they mean the same thing. To a Jew they are vastly different.

Platonism - Believed that we must be capable of existing apart from our bodies. The flesh is evil. The body is a prison. It is bad for the soul (i.e. spirit) to be in the body. Platonism suggests the immortality of the soul, and the soul then becoming incarnate (Grolier’s Encyclopedia (GE)).

This definition of "spirit" if used, will completely change the meanings of many passages in the Bible, and lead to false conclusions[/u]. It has inherent problems right away. First, only God is immortal (1 Timothy 6:15-16). Second, I do not know of anyone that would dispute that judgment happens at the return of Christ. So how then can your spirit or soul go to heaven or hell at death if you have not yet been judged? This should be a clue that something is wrong with this definition of "spirit."

Let us now examine what "spirit" means to a Jew. The word "spirit" in Hebrew is "ruah" and in Greek it is "pneuma." The Jews used ruah in the same way that they used pneuma. "Unlike the Greeks, who found dissolution of the body desirable (cf Socrates), Paul has a Jewish horror of it" (Roman Catholic New American Bible (NAB)).

Spirit - (ruah & pneuma) - Breath of life. The vital principal by which the body is animated (Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words (VED)).
In other words, it is the life force that God gives to people and animals that animates their bodies, which gives them life. When He takes it away their “spirit� they die.

Examples:
Psalms 104:29 -30: "When you take away their breath (ruah), they perish and return to the dust from which they came. When you send forth your breath (ruah), they are created."

Ecclesiates 12:7: "And the dust returns to the earth as it once was, and the life breath (ruah) returns to God who gave it."

Psalms 33:6: "When his spirit (ruah) departs he returns to his earth; on that day his plans perish."

Soul - As was mentioned earlier, to a Greek philosopher spirit and soul are interchangeable, they mean the same thing. To a Jew however, they are not. Neither in Hebrew nor Greek does Soul mean something that is separable from the body. Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words states: "The Hebrew system of thought does not include the combination or opposition of the terms "body" and "soul," which are really Greek (philosophy) and Latin in origin."

Let’s take a look at some definitions:
Soul (Heb. nepes) - 1. living being, self, life, person. 2. The inner person, seat of emotions and passions (VED & The Brown Driver Briggs Hebrew and English Lexicon (BDB)).
Soul (Gk. psuche) - 1.own self, the natural life of the body. 2. The seat of feelings, desires, affections, aversions (VED & Thayer's Greek English Lexicon of the New Testament (TGEL)).

In both languages the definitions are almost identical. When a person or animal receives the breath of life (spirit) he becomes a living soul (a living being).
Example:
Genesis 2:7: "The LORD God formed man out of the clay of the ground and blew into his nostrils the breath of life (ruah), and so man became a living soul (nepes)."
Here are some other examples of the usage of the word "psuche:"

Acts 15:24: "Since we have heard that some of our members who went out without mandate from us have upset you with their teachings and disturbed your peace of mind (psuche)."

Matthew 10:39: "Whoever finds his life (psuche) will lose it, and whoever loses his life (psuche) for my sake will find it."

These are excellent examples. Genesis is self-explanatory. Acts 15:24 uses the definition of "the seat of your emotions." When your peace of mind is disturbed it really means that you are emotionally upset. Matthew uses the definition of "life" for psuche.

This is what "soul" means to a Jew. It is never used to imply that it is something separable from the body. Even the definition of "the seat of your emotions" does not come close. Your emotions cannot be separated from you. When you die, your emotions die with you. These are the definitions that one must keep in mind when reading the Bible in order to understand the meanings of the verses as the writer intended.

This understanding is critical when one interprets a verse such as Luke 23:46:
"Father, into your hands I commend my spirit;" and when he said this he breathed his last.

If you use the Greek philosophical definition as most people do, you will arrive at the conclusion that at that moment Jesus’ Greek type spirit went to heaven to be with God. This of course is not possible because in John 20:17 when Jesus was raised from the dead after three days, he appeared to Mary of Magdala and told her:

"Stop holding on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father."

Jesus is clear that he has not yet been to the Father. So where has he been for three days? He has been in Sheol, the pit, the grave, the earth. Jesus himself tells us in John 12:32: "And when I am lifted up from the earth, I will draw everyone to myself."

Jesus has been dead as Scripture says of him. On the third day God resurrected him. Also, if your spirit is in heaven you are not truly dead.
Yet, if we use the Jewish definition of spirit it will make perfect sense. Jesus’ breath of life returned to the Father and he died and was in the earth for three days. There is then no conflict with John 20:17.

So the best observation comes from Jesus Himself, at His death He teaches… (Luke 23:46) And Jesus, crying out with a loud voice, said, "Father, INTO YOUR HANDS I COMMIT MY SPIRIT." Having said this, He breathed His last. Read again what Jesus said… Jesus gave up his Spirit but not His Soul as the Westminster Confession teaches. An example that supports this is when Mary at Jesus’ tomb turned and saw Jesus. She naturally got excited and Jesus told her… John 20:17 … Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father. Do not miss this connection, Jesus gave up his Spirit to the Father at death but told Mary He had not yet ascended to the Father after His resurrection. It is clear the scriptures never teach that the soul is or has an immortal subsistence. As both Jesus’ body and soul died and went to hades! Just as Ecclesiates 12:7 teaches. This is why Jesus is called the first born from the dead! Col 1:18 He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything.


So who is in Heaven?

(Joh 3:13) No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.

What does Paul tell us? (2Ti 2:18) men who have gone astray from the truth saying that the resurrection has already taken place, and they upset the faith of some.

John tells us (Rev 20:5) The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

Joh 11:24 Martha said to him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day."

I read the scriptures as saying man stays dead until the resurrection?

Yet others greater than I... disagree??
Paul

Just an old post you might want to read?
Paul

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 16 by Pierac]

Just an old post you might want to read?
Paul

Thanks for that.

A relevant backdrop to my op, without really touching on what it references.

Perhaps you can soon deal directly with the issues raised in the op?

I surely do want to read what you have to say on those matters!

[Pierac]

[Replying to post 16 by Pierac]

Just an old post you might want to read?
Paul

Thanks for that.

A relevant backdrop to my op, without really touching on what it references.

Perhaps you can soon deal directly with the issues raised in the op?

I surely do want to read what you have to say on those matters!

Sorry busy at work and wanted to repost something I put together at another thread... as you said was a... relevant backdrop to your op

I wrote a 22 page paper to myself regarding ....

Westminster Confession
Chapter XXXII
Of the State of Men after Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead
I. The bodies of men, after death, return to dust, and see corruption:[1] but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, having an immortal subsistence, immediately return to God who gave them:[2] the souls of the righteous, being then made perfect in holiness, are received into the highest heavens, where they behold the face of God, in light and glory, waiting for the full redemption of their bodies.[3] And the souls of the wicked are cast into hell, where they remain in torments and utter darkness, reserved to the judgment of the great day.[4] Beside these two places, for souls separated from their bodies, the Scripture acknowledges none. II. At the last day, such as are found alive shall not die, but be changed:[5] and all the dead shall be raised up, with the selfsame bodies, and none other (although with different qualities), which shall be united again to their souls forever.[6] III. The bodies of the unjust shall, by the power of Christ, be raised to dishonor: the bodies of the just, by His Spirit, unto honor; and be made conformable to His own glorious body.[7]


I went line by line debunking the Westminster Confession
Chapter XXXII
Of the State of Men after Death, and of the Resurrection of the Dead!

It was one of the easiest studied I have ever done!

Their comment.... but their souls, which neither die nor sleep, took about 3 min to contradict!


(Psa 13:3) Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,


(1Th 4:13) But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

(Dan 12:2). "Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

(Act 7:60) And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.


Still it took 22 pages and about a month to cover every scripture and subject on the state of men at death! And I mean Every scripture/event...

I promise


Ask a specific question on a verse or biblical event about the Westminster Confession.... I covered events not even addressed... I got your back bro!
Paul