Eternal Hell

[amortalman]

I have two questions primarily for Christians.

1) If your brand of religion teaches that unbelievers will be judged by God and cast into Hell and the Lake of Fire for eternity to suffer there with no possibility of death or escape, is this action by God a just punishment, and why?

2) The second question is purely hypothetical and reaches way out there. If your God gave you permission to do as you please concerning eternal Hell, to keep it, or to abolish it in favor of, say, annihilation, would you keep it or do away with it?

NOTE: In regards to question number one I'm thinking about the story told by Jesus of the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke chapter 16. The Lake of Fire is mentioned in Revelation 20:10-15 and 21:8.

To me, an eternity of suffering in Hell defies logic and any sense of compassion what-so-ever. During my years as a Christian in an evangelical church, I've heard many preachers preface a sermon on Hell by saying they don't like to talk about it and don't like the concept of it but they must preach it because that's what the Bible teaches. I was once a part of a Biblical teaching program for children 2nd through 6th grade. I can only imagine the nightmares some of them had after being told that without Jesus they would go to Hell forever. Someone might argue that it's better that than to go to Hell. But does the fear tactic really work, and if it does, is that the best way, to scare the hell out of them?

In my understanding of the Bible, and what is being taught to millions of people in evangelical churches around the world, there are two kinds of people who will be cast into Hell. Those who have never heard the gospel and those how have rejected the gospel after having heard it. According to that teaching, there are countless millions of poor souls being tormented in Hell right now because they never had an opportunity to hear about Christ. Furthermore, there are hundreds if not thousands that are dying every day and going to Hell for lack of an opportunity to decide. Is that just?

Finally, I'm hopeful that the second question will cut to the Christians heart concerning the doctrine of Hell and reveal the insanity of it. To me, someone who would keep Hell if given the chance to abolish it is a Sadist of the worse kind. But then again, if a Christian says that he would do away with Hell is he demonstrating that he is more merciful than God?

What say you?

[Claire Evans]

Okay. I can understand you believe we return to where we come from but we cannot know if we had consciousness then. It's kind of like God judging us what we did in a past lifetime, hypothetically, and we had no clue we sin in that time.

You really think we could be people without consciousness? This old stand-by takes on a new look, eh: Jeremiah 1:5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations." And People sang HIS praise at the creation of the universe so someone was there...why not us. AND Rom 1:20 claims we do not remember the proof of HIS divinity and power because we repressed it so we have no excuse. Nope, can't find anything in this to being judged for unknown evil.

Of course God knows us before we are born. He knows the future. He has a plan for us even before we are born. That doesn't mean we ever knew about it.

I don't know who you got that interpretation of Roman. He says that since creation, we have understood and saw. It's because creation is evidence of His existence.

Innocence does not prove free from temptation because Christ was innocent yet tempted by Satan.

So you agree now that Jesus was tempted? You know a temptation is a thought that is contrary to God's will?

You ignore the subtlety of the words two meanings: Temptation comes to us and to Him but we succumb and allow it to grow and He did not. Like the rain that falls on a pond and is absorbed but on a rock it makes no impression.

"...the desire to do something, especially something wrong or unwise."

Satan tempts us so his desire becomes ours. Satan tempted Christ with no response, no harmonic resonance of desire. But to be tempted means it came to Him and it may mean He listened to it...which is wrongly decided.

Of course He didn't allow it to grow but He had a thought contrary to God's will. Now God and heaven could never be tempted. Although Jesus was pure, He still inherited our human nature in that we are open to temptation.

BUT if Adam was a sinner when he was breathed into his body thereby fulfilling the word he was the one to bring sin into the world when he was in fact third to sin, [another logical interpretation of the story in support for PCE which you have no thing to rebut with], then the temptation of the fruit is obvious.

Except Adam didn't exist as the Bible says.

A bold statement so I must ask you to prove it because I do not see any proof of Adam's non-existence before the garden. It is assumed he didn't so exist by those who reject his pre-earth existence but there is no proof I am wrong.

Adam actually means mankind, not an individual. It is clear that Genesis is lifted off the Sumerian text.


"The Hebrews as nomadic tribes, and later as tradesmen, were always on the move all over the Fertile Crescent that was bounded to the west by Egypt and to the east by Sumer and Babylon (Mesopotamia). Their constant journeys gave them access to the famous epics and stories/myths of the ancient Near East."


As for your pre-earth theory, we truly don't know what happened before we were born. Nobody can know for sure. It's just that the scriptures you have provided have a different context to what the writers meant.

None of my strongest critics have never been able to find one verse that makes it impossible or even questionable for our pre-conception existence to be true no matter how it is interpreted.

You and I have different views on who God is. Do you really believe God would create an evil being just to show us how evil we are that we wouldn't be if Satan didn't exist?

NO I don't and if you can say this after all I have written denying that GOD creates any evil at all, you are either not paying attention or are trying to attack my reputation with wild accusations. I don't put up with such things for long.

So Satan was created righteous? How on earth then do you believe he became the most evil to ever exist? No one on earth is capable to the extent of evil that Satan is. We are not talking about just a rebellious nature. We are talking about a monstrosity. You do deny God creates evil but asserting that God created Satan means is a problem. For Satan to be evil, evil must have existed before his creation.

Where did evil come from in the first place? And don't tell me Satan wasn't always evil.
You know evil starts with temptation and so who tempted Satan? Everything has an origin.

How many times do I have to write it? I believe Satan was created ingenuously innocent and stayed so until he heard YHWH claiming to be his GOD did not go over so well with him and he was tempted to deny HIM from his own desires to be free from a GOD... IF you can't believe Satan was self tempted when he heard YHWH's claims to be [a] GOD, then at least do me the courtesy of not claiming I believe that he was created evil.


If you don't want me to tell you that he was not created evil then stop asking.

Self tempted? How do you go from sincere and trusting of God and just being jealous to being such a monstrous being that demands child rape and human sacrifice? Should God have known how Satan would turn out, why on earth would He have created him?

[Monta]

[Replying to post 171 by Claire Evans]



"So Satan was created righteous? How on earth then do you believe he became the most evil to ever exist? No one on earth is capable to the extent of evil that Satan is. We are not talking about just a rebellious nature. We are talking about a monstrosity. You do deny God creates evil but asserting that God created Satan means is a problem. For Satan to be evil, evil must have existed before his creation. "

Intelligence has been given not like unto a robot to do one thing alone but to know the difference and the ability to choose. There's no freedom of choice if only good is available to choose from.
Angels who chose opposite to light were tossed out of heaven.

Jesus said to Peter, get thee behind me satan; Peter was a man not satan but
his suggestion was satanic in Jesus eyes.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 171 by Claire Evans]



"So Satan was created righteous? How on earth then do you believe he became the most evil to ever exist? No one on earth is capable to the extent of evil that Satan is. We are not talking about just a rebellious nature. We are talking about a monstrosity. You do deny God creates evil but asserting that God created Satan means is a problem. For Satan to be evil, evil must have existed before his creation. "

Intelligence has been given not like unto a robot to do one thing alone but to know the difference and the ability to choose. There's no freedom of choice if only good is available to choose from.
Angels who chose opposite to light were tossed out of heaven.

Jesus said to Peter, get thee behind me satan; Peter was a man not satan but
his suggestion was satanic in Jesus eyes.

Yes, when Satan was created he was not "Satan." That word means "resister," and God made no persons that would resist Him. Having free will, the angel who became Satan decided on his own that he would like to be independent of God and God's laws. Thus he became the universe's most evil person to ever exist. Evil does not "have to exist before its creation."

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 171 by Claire Evans]



"So Satan was created righteous? How on earth then do you believe he became the most evil to ever exist? No one on earth is capable to the extent of evil that Satan is. We are not talking about just a rebellious nature. We are talking about a monstrosity. You do deny God creates evil but asserting that God created Satan means is a problem. For Satan to be evil, evil must have existed before his creation. "

Intelligence has been given not like unto a robot to do one thing alone but to know the difference and the ability to choose. There's no freedom of choice if only good is available to choose from.
Angels who chose opposite to light were tossed out of heaven.

Jesus said to Peter, get thee behind me satan; Peter was a man not satan but
his suggestion was satanic in Jesus eyes.

In order to choose between good and evil, evil must have existed prior. So prior to Satan's temptation, evil must have existed. So according to this logic, God is the author of evil and sin.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 174 by Claire Evans]

"In order to choose between good and evil, evil must have existed prior. So prior to Satan's temptation, evil must have existed. So according to this logic, God is the author of evil and sin."

We really do not know the begginings of creation.
God in his wisdom foresaw evil in the future and if it were either possible or approprite for it not to evantuate, He would have made it so.

Adam and Eve as a race of people may have lived in the Garden of Eden for million of years before an angel thought he'd like to compete with God.

[Claire Evans]

[Replying to post 174 by Claire Evans]

"In order to choose between good and evil, evil must have existed prior. So prior to Satan's temptation, evil must have existed. So according to this logic, God is the author of evil and sin."

We really do not know the begginings of creation.
God in his wisdom foresaw evil in the future and if it were either possible or approprite for it not to evantuate, He would have made it so.

Do you agree with me that without Satan, we could never be tempted to do evil?
Consider that God could not have have prevented evil from coming into this world even though He foresaw it. He did not have that ability.

Adam and Eve as a race of people may have lived in the Garden of Eden for million of years before an angel thought he'd like to compete with God.

It's a Sumerian story. It did not happen like said in Genesis.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 176 by Claire Evans]


"Do you agree with me that without Satan, we could never be tempted to do evil?
Consider that God could not have have prevented evil from coming into this world even though He foresaw it. He did not have that ability. "

What is called satan did not exist untill Eve succumbed to temtation.

Call it ability or whatever God can not break his own divine law/order.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 176 by Claire Evans]


"Do you agree with me that without Satan, we could never be tempted to do evil?
Consider that God could not have have prevented evil from coming into this world even though He foresaw it. He did not have that ability. "

What is called satan did not exist untill Eve succumbed to temtation.

Call it ability or whatever God can not break his own divine law/order.

What "divine law/order" are you referring too?

"did not exist until"..what was it that came to exist that "is called satan", then?

[Tetragrammaton]

[Replying to post 177 by Monta]

What is called satan did not exist untill Eve succumbed to temtation.

So who created the temptation? Was it not god who created the talking snake to make the temptation?
And also was it not god that created the law/order that if someone falls for temptation a Satan is created?

Call it ability or whatever God can not break his own divine law/order.

So if god makes the law/order that Satan begins to exist if someone falls to temptation, then he cannot undo it once it is done?

Seems that god is quite incompetent/impotent, since even a miserable human can easily undo some of his creations but god cannot.

When creating software, we humans invented the "UNDO" button, but you are saying that god forgot or was not smart enough to realize it?

The extent at which apologist go is unbelievable sometimes, and make their god look quite stupid to excuse his actions.

[Monta]

[Replying to post 176 by Claire Evans]


"Do you agree with me that without Satan, we could never be tempted to do evil?
Consider that God could not have have prevented evil from coming into this world even though He foresaw it. He did not have that ability. "

What is called satan did not exist untill Eve succumbed to temtation.

Call it ability or whatever God can not break his own divine law/order.

What "divine law/order" are you referring too?

"did not exist until"..what was it that came to exist that "is called satan", then?

To say that 'God could not have prevented evil from coming into the world'
because 'He did not have that ability' is wrong; if the order of creation is for a man to have a free will, how can God break this order and stop man from exercising it?

Your second ? - what came into existence that is called 'satan', it is falsity and evil.
Satan and devil is generic for all falsity and evil.