What is the logic behind Jesus' crucifixion?

[Justin108]

I have been asking this question over and over on this forum and no theist has ever been able to address it. They try, but once I give my rebuttal to their attempts, they eventually stop replying. Hopefully I can get an answer this time.

Note: This topic is specifically for Christians who believe Jesus' death was necessary for us to have our sins forgiven.

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?

[shnarkle]

[Replying to shnarkle]

I think you're mistaking what I'm saying. Jesus said, "If anyone would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me.

This doesn't deny the world, or anything in it. It quite simply means to deny the existence of the ego; i.e. the self.

I'm happy with Jesus' quote, but it's ambiguous. You'll have to be clearer what you mean by "ego." You mean self importance? Is that what we are to deny? Versus our interests, as I've said?

How do you reconcile the denial of self-importance with the call in Genesis 1 that we take over God's work and rule the earth? That sounds pretty important to me.

I'm not saying we are to do it in a self-aggrandizing way. But let's recognize the high status that God has given us and the important role we play in God's designs. "What is a human being that you make so much of them?" the psalmist asks...

Our importance in this drama cannot be denied.

We are not to affirm the creation, but the Creator. We're not to express the creation, but the Creator. We manifest God's will through the Christ, not the creation. We cease to have our identity in our created bodies, but in Christ alone. Our bodies are simply the temple in which God's spirit resides. The self is a mediator, and there can be no mediator between God and his creation, except Christ.

See, I can't separate. God's will is creation, and all the things in it. God's will, from Genesis 1, is shaping the formless world, filling it with life, and calling us to continue in that task (to rule the world in precisely this way, i.e., in the image of God).

That is what it means to be in self-giving service of the world. To love. To be in the image of God... That is what Christ did and why he too called us to follow him.

So yes, Christ is the way. But Christ is above all an affirmation of self (through self giving) and creation (by giving himself for the sake of the world). Furthermore, this is an affirmation of God's will (from Genesis 1) and therefore of God. To be Christ is to be anointed, which means to take our place by God as kings and queens of creation. It is to rule through self-giving love as God/Christ shows us, and as we are called from the beginning.

I really don't understand the purpose of creation in your thinking. Did God make us just so we could remove ourselves from the picture? Why make us at all when all God wanted was a vessel that could be filled with God? ...

Here's the crux of it I think:

Where you want us to be hollowed out to create space for the spirit, I think we need to lift ourselves up or be uplifted wholly intact into the spirit. Becoming part of it and filled by it that way. All that is profane in this world must be made sacred. Not by denying it, but by uplifting it.

For your view, what is it about ourselves, precisely, that blocks the spirit, or prevents it from filling us?...

The world already is, and there is nothing we can do to make the world a better place. We have taken what God created and wrecked it. He redeems it, not us. The self is denied when the Spirit indwells in the believer. It is the power of God that works within the believer.

Then I don't understand our calling in Genesis 1-2. To rule the earth, subdue it, and fill it with life. To be a gardener, creating the conditions for life... To live not just by faith, but works too, since faith is dead without works...

I think if we do nothing and wait for God the world is never going to change. God is never going to come. It'll be false Messiah after false Messiah. If we simply remove ourselves from the picture, nothing will fill the void. Or the self will simply return out of necessity...

Rather, we need to uplift our whole selves up to the spirit of love and do works of love in this world. That is the way. It is extremely active on our part. It is all on us.

As long as we want to take credit for giving of ourselves, we're just spotlighting ourselves.

Who wants to take credit? That would not be a true gift if that was our intention in giving.

Christ's identity is not with the self he explicitly denies. Christ is our example. He does not deny himself so we can retain ourselves. He doesn't deny himself so he can make room for himself.

I'm not following. I think Christ denied himself so that others could live. He gave himself to the world for the sake of the world. To save it. To make it better. He is the sacrificial lamb that gives itself for the life of others. He shows us the self-giving way that I am speaking of. He has uplifted himself to the spirit of love and calls us to follow him.

In a nutshell, it's the difference between being selfish and selfless. You think it's possible to be selfless while still retaining the self. When one identifies with the self, and the self is shattered, they end up insane. When one denies the self, and the self is shattered, they see the kingdom. They cease to see others as others. The self is no longer there to make these distinctions in the first place. Jesus denies himself and manifests God's will through everything he does, but it is no longer he who is doing anything, but the will of God being manifested through "him". Paul says the exact same thing.

The self does nothing but collect whatever it can and hold it for itself. When the self is denied, the will of God flows through and into the world.

The idea of denying the self is ghastly to the self so it should come as no surprise that this idea is rejected. The self is incapable of receiving any of God's blessings or gifts. One must be emptied of oneself to receive God's gifts which are no longer held, but immediately passed along. This is what the Holy Spirit does by convicting one of their selfishness, they are then able to see the self for what it is; nothing but vain imagining. Now the temple has been cleansed. The vessel is empty and ready to receive God's precious gifts in abundance. These gifts cannot be held, but can only overflow. It's the difference between being a conduit and being a receptacle; a dam and a spillway. The self holds on to a dime while the selfless invests everything. Nature abhors a vacuum, and God fills the vacuum.

[Justin108]

Jesus shows through the crucifixion that he, as a human being, is worthy. And because he is worthy, it means we all are worthy. Or are potentially worthy (as human beings).

Was Jesus 100% human? Can we potentially do everything Jesus can?
Who exactly does Jesus demonstrate this worthiness to? To us? Or God?

That is what Jesus does. In steadfastness to the communal way of self-giving (for the salvation and life of others), though the worst possible death even, Jesus proves his worthiness to rule, and in the process restores the reputation of us all.

That's it? The only thing Jesus' death did was prove a point?

Thus Jesus' test is if he will self-give his very life in commitment to the way that saves.

I have no idea what you just said here

our true commitment to the way that saves

What does this mean? "The way that saves"?

[Justin108]

No, Jesus died as a direct result of our ridiculous system of justice.

So Jesus' death wasn't a sacrifice at all? He just happened to be crucified by the Romans?

Both the son and the father make a sacrifice. The son asks his father to forgive the man who is responsible for his death, and the father does exactly that and his forgiveness is complete.

So the sacrifice is the forgiveness?

No, the forgiveness is the forgiveness.

Okay so the forgiveness is the forgiveness... then what's the sacrifice? What did the father/son sacrifice?

The reason Jesus had to die is because he was born. Anyone who is born is going to die

Elijah didn't (2 Kings 2)

He was born because it is impossible to have a relationship with a transcendent deity

So every time a Christian told me he had a relationship with God, he was lying?

He has a relationship with a transcendent deity

You just said this was impossible

and through him it is possible to have the same relationship

"Through him"? What does this mean exactly?

As a member of "everyone on the planet", I disagree

Of course you do. That's why you're lumped in with the rest of everyone on this planet.

No, I meant I disagree with you. You said "we don't want to see that the guilt has been removed", then you said "we" is everyone on earth. I am telling you that I am not part of this "we". I'm fine with my guilt being removed

Because this is your argument. God forgives, but since Jesus ended up on a cross, that's just too much to forgive for you.

When did I say this? Please quote me

You're not fine with Jesus' crucifixion though, are you?

Most Christians I know interpret Jesus' crucifixion as his goal on Earth. Most Christians believe Jesus came here to be sacrificed and that his death on the cross somehow pays for our sins. That's what I disagree with. I'm perfectly fine with forgiveness. That's why I explicitly stated in my OP that this topic is specifically for Christians who believe Jesus' death was necessary for us to have our sins forgiven. So if you disagree with this interpretation, then we are wasting out time debating

[JehovahsWitness]

I personally will pass on the video as I am here to debate on the forum, not watch videos. I must also keep up the impression that I'm actually doing work not skiving off.

No problem if you want to watch it after work or when you have time that's fine. I don't expect people to comment on the further information I post it's usually deep stuff and I doubt the casual poster could understand it anyway, it's more for the advanced theologians that might be reading and of course those interested in learning.

JW

[Justin108]

I'll consider it after you answer my question and provide evidence that what you say is true.

Evidence for what exactly...?

As for your question, I assume you're referring to this one?

Do you understand the difference between being able to do something and it being the right thing to do?

Yes I understand there is a difference.

Moving on. Can you please explain to me how making sin an inheritable trait was the "right" thing to do?

[theophile]

[Replying to shnarkle]

In a nutshell, it's the difference between being selfish and selfless. You think it's possible to be selfless while still retaining the self. When one identifies with the self, and the self is shattered, they end up insane. When one denies the self, and the self is shattered, they see the kingdom. They cease to see others as others. The self is no longer there to make these distinctions in the first place. Jesus denies himself and manifests God's will through everything he does, but it is no longer he who is doing anything, but the will of God being manifested through "him". Paul says the exact same thing.

Have you watched Star Trek? When I read what you say, I can't help but think of the Borg. They are a "people" who empty out those who are different from them, assimilate them, fill them all with the same "spirit." (Resistance is futile.)

Difference is eradicated. The self is denied. Everyone is or will become the same. All thinking the same. Speaking the same. Doing the same. One voice devoid of difference.

I don't think that's the way. I think there is strength in difference and in maintaining our differences and finding ways to come together and unite with our differences still in tact.

Consider the story of Babel. What do we see there but something very much akin to the Borg? A people all thinking the same. Talking the same. Doing the same. (And like the Borg, having great power through that way.)

But there is no difference left. There is no more room for something new.

Thus God disrupts Babel, confuses their language, reintroduces difference, and causes the people to spread across the earth.

Why we must ask does God do this. Because there is something important about differences being maintained. About the self persisting and uniting with God as itself. (It is essentially marriage. That has been God's purpose all along.)

[theophile]

[Replying to post 42 by Justin108]

Was Jesus 100% human? Can we potentially do everything Jesus can?

It's a story. But yes, I think he's 100% human in that story. But he has also lifted himself up to be something more. Something we can follow him in.

Will we be able to perform miracles as he did? It's a story. It's saying that through this way, through following him, greater things will become possible. Things that now may be impossible will become possible.

It is saying that through sin, the world becomes a smaller place and possibilities contract. Through the way that Jesus shows us, the opposite occurs. Water can be turned into wine. The blind can be made to see. The dead can be returned to life.

(Some of these we may already see the possibility of...)

That's it? The only thing Jesus' death did was prove a point?

I think it's an awfully serious question for all of us whether or not God's design, where human beings rule the earth, is acceptable.

"What is a human being that you make so much of them?..." the psalmist asks God.

There are doubters and dissenters everywhere. Why do you think the bible shows talking snakes? Because animals have a voice whether we want to hear them or not. What do you think all the species we've endangered or destroyed are saying? Does their blood not call out from the earth against us? Against God's design? What about the poor in our own communities? The children who go hungry while others throw away food?...

The point that Jesus proves is an important one. He proves our worthiness. Or potential worthiness. That is how he redeems us.

All the horrible shitty things we've done as a species, all the things that cast us in doubt and would have others challenge God's plans, Jesus gives hope through his example that we're not that bad. That maybe, just maybe, we're worth our existence. Or could be.

So don't reduce it down to "prove a point." There's way more at stake than that.

The earth and everything in it.

What does this mean? "The way that saves"?

In my first post on this thread I contrasted Communion with Crucifixion. The former is the way that saves. The latter is a mockery and abuse of it in a fallen world.

[shnarkle]

No, Jesus died as a direct result of our ridiculous system of justice.

So Jesus' death wasn't a sacrifice at all? He just happened to be crucified by the Romans?

Both the son and the father make a sacrifice. The son asks his father to forgive the man who is responsible for his death, and the father does exactly that and his forgiveness is complete.

So the sacrifice is the forgiveness?

No, the forgiveness is the forgiveness.

Okay so the forgiveness is the forgiveness... then what's the sacrifice? What did the father/son sacrifice?

The reason Jesus had to die is because he was born. Anyone who is born is going to die

Elijah didn't (2 Kings 2)

He was born because it is impossible to have a relationship with a transcendent deity

So every time a Christian told me he had a relationship with God, he was lying?

He has a relationship with a transcendent deity

You just said this was impossible

and through him it is possible to have the same relationship

"Through him"? What does this mean exactly?

As a member of "everyone on the planet", I disagree

Of course you do. That's why you're lumped in with the rest of everyone on this planet.

No, I meant I disagree with you. You said "we don't want to see that the guilt has been removed", then you said "we" is everyone on earth. I am telling you that I am not part of this "we". I'm fine with my guilt being removed

Because this is your argument. God forgives, but since Jesus ended up on a cross, that's just too much to forgive for you.

When did I say this? Please quote me

You're not fine with Jesus' crucifixion though, are you?

Most Christians I know interpret Jesus' crucifixion as his goal on Earth. Most Christians believe Jesus came here to be sacrificed and that his death on the cross somehow pays for our sins. That's what I disagree with. I'm perfectly fine with forgiveness. That's why I explicitly stated in my OP that this topic is specifically for Christians who believe Jesus' death was necessary for us to have our sins forgiven. So if you disagree with this interpretation, then we are wasting out time debating

No doubt this is all a waste of time. The OP is pointless, but I've got nothing better to do until I get well. Jesus saves through sin itself. He isn't just showing that he can go the distance, he's going to go the distance to save everyone. You don't see it as necessary; that's your choice. No one is forcing you to go along with a plan of forgiveness that includes the most wretched souls who ever lived. You're better than that, so you can save yourself. Except you can't, and Jesus didn't come for the righteous, or perhaps he meant the self righteous.

There were those who looked at Mel Gibson's movie as masochistic pornography, and in a sense they're right. God's sacrifice does include suffering, but one could liken it to the suffering of a woman giving birth; it's done out of love.

Christians tend to look at Christ's sacrifice as one of self sacrifice; here's where I disagree. This is not to say that the theme of sacrifice isn't part of what is going on here, but that Jesus has no self to sacrifice in the first place. He has denied himself. His life is one of self sacrifice, but not in the sense of giving anything up; he has no self to give. What is being given is God's spirit which cannot be sacrificed in our sense of the term, but divinity is a process of sacrifice; an ecstatic sacrifice. God has an infinite supply of love to give, so while He is giving of Himself, He can do nothing else as He can't stop spreading the love around. He just loves spreading the love, and he'll go it to the ends of the earth, He'll take it to the pit of hell.

Where it becomes a sacrifice for Jesus is that He is coming to show us the way to salvation, but for us who haven't denied the self we have no way to understand how this is done. We create ourselves separate from God, and the self will die separate from God. This is not a punishment from God, this is of our own doing. We all do this just like Adam did; it's what we know how to do. Jesus comes along and lives a life united with reality. There is no barrier between him and God because he's walking with God just like Adam did before he started thinking that he was separate from God.

The gospel narratives show that Jesus lived this life, but that there is no death when living in the light of God's abundance. It would have been no sacrifice so even though there is no self with Jesus, he experiences separation from God which begins in what is commonly known as "the agony in the garden". This is what most people today experience when they pray to God when something horrible happens in their lives and they ask, "where is God in all of this"? People experience separation from God, and reject God because they don't see God anywhere. This is an ontological fact of our existence within the perspective of the self. The self cannot see God and live. When the self dissipates then reality is seen.

Jesus must experience separation from God. He can't just go a little way and get everyone. He has to go all the way and experience complete separation from God just as we do. The paradox is that those who are able to see what Christ is doing here are able to let go of self, thus escaping an identity with self. Identity with Christ is then achieved. The body still dies, but since there is no identification with the body anymore, there is " no sting" to death.

So in this sense , he is paying the ultimate price by doing what is the most asinine thing possible, i.e. voluntarily experiencing the death of the most selfish person imaginable. For the most selfish person, a paper cut is tantamount to scourging and crucifixion.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 42 by Justin108]

Was Jesus 100% human? Can we potentially do everything Jesus can?

It's a story. But yes, I think he's 100% human in that story. But he has also lifted himself up to be something more. Something we can follow him in.

He lifts himself up onto a cross; he crucifies the self. This is what Paul calls us to do as well.

Will we be able to perform miracles as he did? It's a story. It's saying that through this way, through following him, greater things will become possible. Things that now may be impossible will become possible.

We live in a world that is so fallen that simply feeding the hungry can break the hardest of hearts open to hear the gospel message. For them this is truly miraculous.

It is saying that through sin, the world becomes a smaller place and possibilities contract. Through the way that Jesus shows us, the opposite occurs. Water can be turned into wine. The blind can be made to see. The dead can be returned to life.

(Some of these we may already see the possibility of...)

The Way is in the midst of this small sinful world. The dead are not resurrected until we are able to forsake everything this great big wonderful world has to offer us. The only thing that matters is the king and his kingdom. The possibilities become endless. It isn't just that the blind see, the lame walk, but the hungry are fed, the homeless are sheltered, the imprisoned are visited, the sick are cared for etc. These are all miracles in a fallen world. These are signs of God's will being manifest in a fallen world.

The point that Jesus proves is an important one. He proves our worthiness. Or potential worthiness. That is how he redeems us.

Jesus gives hope through his example that we're not that bad. That maybe, just maybe, we're worth our existence. Or could be.[/b]

There's no maybe about it. Jesus comes to show that we're worth redeeming. However, he doesn't show us that we're not that bad, but that despite how bad we really are, we have the potential to be the light of the world. Those who feel that they aren't that bad don't get to feel much of anything of God's forgiveness. When the Holy Spirit grants someone the gift of repentance they feel the full force of God's forgiveness in their wretched corrupt heart.

In my first post on this thread I contrasted Communion with Crucifixion. The former is the way that saves. The latter is a mockery and abuse of it in a fallen world.

Again, I disagree. This is especially evident in John's gospel where the crucifixion is the pinnacle of what it means to be a king in God's kingdom, i.e. denial of the self. Whatever it takes to deny the self must be done, and with the truly selfish, it takes scourging and crucifixion to see the lengths that God will go to redeem humanity.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to shnarkle]

In a nutshell, it's the difference between being selfish and selfless. You think it's possible to be selfless while still retaining the self. When one identifies with the self, and the self is shattered, they end up insane. When one denies the self, and the self is shattered, they see the kingdom. They cease to see others as others. The self is no longer there to make these distinctions in the first place. Jesus denies himself and manifests God's will through everything he does, but it is no longer he who is doing anything, but the will of God being manifested through "him". Paul says the exact same thing.

Have you watched Star Trek? When I read what you say, I can't help but think of the Borg. They are a "people" who empty out those who are different from them, assimilate them, fill them all with the same "spirit." (Resistance is futile.)

Difference is eradicated.

Difference isn't denied, but instead it is all of the multifaceted aspects of God's nature that are allowed to manifest through His creation. The self identifies with this and claims it for itself. This is foolishness.

The self is denied. Everyone is or will become the same. All thinking the same. Speaking the same. Doing the same. One voice devoid of difference.

A good analogy except that instead of a Borg, we're dealing with God Himself. So we're talking about the God of the universe manifesting through everyone; this is a good thing.

I don't think that's the way. I think there is strength in difference and in maintaining our differences and finding ways to come together and unite with our differences still in tact.

It's a straw man argument. It's not that we're all the same except in that the self is the same in everyone. It's the same self in everyone. This must be denied to let God manifest in each of us. The self doesn't give alms unless it is seen by others. The self doesn't help the old lady across the street if it is late for an important appointment. The self buys a new car, a new house, a new closet full of clothes for itself, and let's the poor starve. The self is the same in all these regards. When the self is denied, God is manifest and the hungry are fed, the naked are clothed, the rent is miraculously paid by an anonymous stranger. See the difference? The self cannot forsake anything for the kingdom. The self cannot really receive anything without holding onto it; it has to possess whatever it can. The kingdom cannot be possessed; only the self can be possessed.

Consider the story of Babel. What do we see there but something very much akin to the Borg? A people all thinking the same. Talking the same. Doing the same. (And like the Borg, having great power through that way.)

There is great responsibility that comes with great power. Your analogy breaks down because again, you seem insistent on ignoring that we aren't dealing with an inferior quality of sameness, but the God of the universe Who is the same yesterday, today and forever. Big difference.

But there is no difference left. There is no more room for something new.

Everything becomes new when the self is abandoned. There is an infinitude of space that is new right in front of our eyes. As Agustine says, we walk right into eternity.

Why we must ask does God do this. Because there is something important about differences being maintained. About the self persisting and uniting with God as itself. (It is essentially marriage. That has been God's purpose all along.)

Again, you need to look at the definition of "deny" and "give". They are two completely different ideas. There is no mediator between God and man except Christ. Paul doesn't say that it is he himself giving of himself. He says that it is NOT I, but Christ...etc." NOT I, NOT PAUL HIMSELF, BUT CHRIST. The word NOT, mean to negate, not to give.

The marriage is one of reunification, not individuality. Our language gives it away. The word individual comes from the word indivisible. Today it means the exact opposite of its original meaning. The left eye can be distinguished from the right eye, but they aren't seen as separate from the body. Many members of the body are seen as one body, not as separate members. It's Christ's body, not yours or mine. It's God's temple, not yours or mine. Your life is not your own is just another way of saying that you have no life apart from Christ. It is only your own perception of being separate that fosters this illusion.

People mistakenly assume that without the self, there is no one to enjoy God's blessings, gifts etc., but his is pure nonsense. When people hear someone claim that the world is an illusion, they hear a false dichotomy. It isn't that the world is an illusion, it is that the self creates a false world around it. A world trapped in time, in it's own faulty thinking. It creates a barrier between itself and the world. It creates a world of me verses the world, us verses them, I and the other. Jesus denied all of this nonsense. There are no enemies, no "other". When one treats others as themselves, they truly see themselves in others. Christians who cannot see themselves in others, or more accurately Christ in others can never see the kingdom. Think about it. How difficult is it to buy yourself anything??? How difficult is it to do the same for someone who just threw their garbage on your front lawn? With the self it is impossible. With God it is the easiest thing in the world to do.

You can give of yourself, but God requires you to give your entire self until there is no self to give. Do yourself a favor and just give it all away right now, then you can start truly enjoying the fruit of the spirit instead of your own works. The self is finite; the Spirit infinite. The self has only so much to give, the Spirit has an infinite supply. "You" must decrease so that God may increase.

Remember a time when you were clueless about Christ? Do you remember a time when you were truly selfish? Now realize that despite how far you may have come from that point, the distance between where you are now and Christ is infinitely farther. The better perspective you have now, is not something that you would want to trade for the ignorant and selfish nature you had in the past, right? Follow that to its logical conclusion and you will reject yourself in favor of the ultimate reality that is found only in Christ Jesus.

Look through His eyes for one moment and you will renounce yourself in a heartbeat; in the twinkling of an eye you will step into eternity.