Is everything connected to the crucifixion?

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Elijah John
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Is everything connected to the crucifixion?

Post #1

Post by Elijah John »

John 10.10
Thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.


I hear from Evangelicals phrases such as:

"This is not the abundant life that Jesus died to give you"

Or

"Jesus didn't die so we would be poor"

Or

"Jesus didn't die so we would be sick"

Or

"Jesus didn't' die so we would be lonely."

They say that Jesus died so we could have the abundant life.

But the verse doesn't say anything about him dying to give us all those things.

It only says he came to that we may have the abundant life.

For debate, why do Evangelicals tie everything to the crucifixion?

Couldn't Jesus have meant that he came that we may have abundant life by means of accepting the forgiveness that he proclaimed on the Father's behalf?

Or the faith that he demonstrated?

Or by means of the Wisdom that he taught?
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: Is everything connected to the crucifixion?

Post #2

Post by Checkpoint »

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
But the verse doesn't say anything about him dying to give us all those things.

It only says he came to that we may have the abundant life.

For debate, why do Evangelicals tie everything to the crucifixion?

Couldn't Jesus have meant that he came that we may have abundant life by means of accepting the forgiveness that he proclaimed on the Father's behalf?


Or by means of the Wisdom that he taught?
Or the faith that he demonstrated?
He could have, but there is no need to speculate.

He told us plainly and clearly in the surrounding verses.
John 10:

9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.

10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.

Elijah John
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Re: Is everything connected to the crucifixion?

Post #3

Post by Elijah John »

Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
But the verse doesn't say anything about him dying to give us all those things.

It only says he came to that we may have the abundant life.

For debate, why do Evangelicals tie everything to the crucifixion?

Couldn't Jesus have meant that he came that we may have abundant life by means of accepting the forgiveness that he proclaimed on the Father's behalf?


Or by means of the Wisdom that he taught?
Or the faith that he demonstrated?
He could have, but there is no need to speculate.

He told us plainly and clearly in the surrounding verses.
John 10:

9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.

10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
John does not spell out what is meant by the phrase "by me". That could mean "by his teachings" after all, remember at the Tranfiguration God contrasted Jesus with Moses (representing the Law) and Elijah (representing the Prophets) and said: "This is my beloved Son listen to him."

Perhaps the blood-atonement was implied in all this, but I don't see it. It certainly is not explicit.
My theological positions:

-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.

I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.

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Re: Is everything connected to the crucifixion?

Post #4

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Elijah John wrote: John 10.10
Thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.
Is everything connected to the ransom sacrifice of Jesus?

Yes, absolutely EVERYTHING!
It is the reason Jesus came to earth.

It is the basis for the kingdom.

And the kingdom is the meaning by which Jehovah’s name will be vindicated
Jesus himself said the law and the prophets were about him. The temple was about him. Every promise in the bible is about him and not one could be fulfilled without the ransom. The ransom the single most important event in human history and there will be no everlasting life for anyone that does not recognise this (see John 17:3; John 10:10).
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
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Re: Is everything connected to the crucifixion?

Post #5

Post by Divine Insight »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Elijah John wrote: John 10.10
Thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.
Is everything connected to the ransom sacrifice of Jesus?

Yes, absolutely EVERYTHING!
It is the reason Jesus came to earth.

It is the basis for the kingdom.

And the kingdom is the meaning by which Jehovah’s name will be vindicated
Jesus himself said the law and the prophets were about him. The temple was about him. Every promise in the bible is about him and not one could be fulfilled without the ransom. The ransom the single most important event in human history and there will be no everlasting life for anyone that does not recognise this (see John 17:3; John 10:10).
I totally agree with JW on this. Christianity is totally dependent on Christ being a "ransom" that supposedly paid the wages of sin for mankind.

I am in total agreement that this is indeed the crux of Christianity. And this is precisely why I reject this entire religion. Well, also because the entire dogma from the beginning of Genesis is also extremely self-contradictory.

But just to focus on this whole "ransom" idea.

Here's my understanding of this:

In the beginning the wages of sin is proclaimed to be "death".

However, there has always been a way to atone for sins and thus avoid having to pay this penalty of death. In the Old Testament this could be done by sacrificing unblemished animals as a sacrificial offering to God.

I have always rejected this Old Testament idea from the very beginning, because I felt that the very idea of atoning sins by killing an animal is already absurd. I would expect an intelligent God to demand restitution rather than giving amnesty if an mere animal is sacrificed on behalf of the sinner. A rich man can atone a whale of a lot of sin by just having a sacrificial feast of his livestock ever so often. :D

A poor many who doesn't own an unblemished animal would need to die for his sins.

It already doesn't add up.

So I reject this notion from the get go in the Old Testament before we even get to the New Testament.

In the Christian New Testament the idea is that Jesus is given by God to humanity to be the ultimate sacrificial lamb to pay for the sins of all men. But this is already based on the previous idea that killing an unblemished sacrificial lamb can atone sins.

Jesus is supposed to be this "unblemished sacrificial lamb". He is unblemished in the sense that he is supposedly sin free. Something that no mortal man can offer. Thus making Jesus absolutely necessary.

I fully understand this religious paradigm. I simply reject it as being utterly absurd. Not to mention the myriad of self-contradiction these doctrines contain from cover to cover.

The idea of Jesus being the sacrificial lamb of God who was "sacrificed" to pay for the sin of man is truly nonsense. It doesn't make any sense. Yet this is the very foundation of what Christianity stands upon. This utterly nonsensical notion that Jesus is the Sacrificial Lamb of God who was sacrificed to atone the sins of mankind.

Jesus didn't even stay dead. Therefore Jesus cannot be said to have pay the wages of sin which is permanent spiritual death.

Jesus was supposedly resurrected and was given the gift of eternal life in heaven. Precisely the reward of saints, not the wages of sin.

So this religion is extremely flawed and self-contradictory.

It's not that I don't understand it. To the contrary I understand it perfectly. I simply recognize that it cannot possibly be true.
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Re: Is everything connected to the crucifixion?

Post #6

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Divine Insight wrote: I totally agree with JW on this. Christianity is totally dependent on Christ being a "ransom" that supposedly paid the wages of sin for mankind.

I am in total agreement that this is indeed the crux of Christianity.....


Here's my understanding of this:

In the beginning the wages of sin is proclaimed to be "death".

However, there has always been a way to atone for sins and thus avoid having to pay this penalty of death. In the Old Testament this could be done by sacrificing unblemished animals as a sacrificial offering to God.

Thanks you.

If I may however correct you on one point, which is quite important. The sacrifices of animals could never atone for human sin and death because the life of an animal can never be considered equal to the life of a human. After all if an animal could suffice then a human sacrifice would have been unnecessary .. and no Jew would have grown old or died.

A ransom by definition has to be equal to the value attributed to the life it is being accepted for. The life of the sinner that caused all our problems was that of Adam ie. one perfect human man. So the only way to atone for the effects of the sin would be the equivalent, the life of one perfect human male.

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RELATED POSTS

To what did the ransom correspond?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 14#p852214

Why is there a need for atonement in biblical theology ?
viewtopic.php?p=1042433#p1042433

To learn more please go to other posts related to

SIN, THE RANSOM SACRIFICE and ... MEMORIAL OF CHRIST'S DEATH
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Aug 27, 2022 11:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

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Re: Is everything connected to the crucifixion?

Post #7

Post by Checkpoint »

Elijah John wrote:
Checkpoint wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
But the verse doesn't say anything about him dying to give us all those things.

It only says he came to that we may have the abundant life.

For debate, why do Evangelicals tie everything to the crucifixion?

Couldn't Jesus have meant that he came that we may have abundant life by means of accepting the forgiveness that he proclaimed on the Father's behalf?


Or by means of the Wisdom that he taught?
Or the faith that he demonstrated?
He could have, but there is no need to speculate.

He told us plainly and clearly in the surrounding verses.
John 10:

9 I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.

10 The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.

11 I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,
15 just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.
John does not spell out what is meant by the phrase "by me". That could mean "by his teachings" after all, remember at the Tranfiguration God contrasted Jesus with Moses (representing the Law) and Elijah (representing the Prophets) and said: "This is my beloved Son listen to him."

Perhaps the blood-atonement was implied in all this, but I don't see it. It certainly is not explicit.
John does spell out what is meant by the phrase "by me", by the repetition of Jesus adding that he is laying down his life for the sheep.

However, I understand why you say it is not explicit in itself.

You say it could mean "by his teachings", so let's explore that a little.

As you pointed out, God did say "Listen to him" as someone the Father was giving greater authority than the Law and the Prophets [Moses and Elijah].

The writer of Hebrews affirms this in his opening statement:
Hebrews 1:

1 Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets,
2 but in these last days He has spoken to us by His Son, whom He appointed the heir of all things, on account of whom also He constructed the ages.
His teachings were many and varied, including, "he who has an ear, let him hear", and "my sheep hear my voice".

And this very explicit word on his own "blood-atonement" being servanthood:
Matthew 20:

25 But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them.
26 It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,
27 and whoever would be first among you must be your bondslave,

28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many".

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Re: Is everything connected to the crucifixion?

Post #8

Post by bluethread »

Divine Insight wrote:
I have always rejected this Old Testament idea from the very beginning, because I felt that the very idea of atoning sins by killing an animal is already absurd. I would expect an intelligent God to demand restitution rather than giving amnesty if an mere animal is sacrificed on behalf of the sinner. A rich man can atone a whale of a lot of sin by just having a sacrificial feast of his livestock ever so often. :D

A poor many who doesn't own an unblemished animal would need to die for his sins.

It already doesn't add up.
Once again, you misstate the case. Adonai does demand restitution. The sacrifice is a memorial acknowledgement of HaTorah, not an equity remedy. Also, the poor are granted the opportunity to provide a lesser sacrifice, i.e. doves.

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Re: Is everything connected to the crucifixion?

Post #9

Post by bluethread »

Checkpoint wrote:
And this very explicit word on his own "blood-atonement" being servanthood:
Matthew 20:

25 But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them.
26 It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,
27 and whoever would be first among you must be your bondslave,

28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many".
"blood-atonement" is not explicit in that passage, what is explicit is His sacrificial life. His death is implicit as part of that life. This isolation of Yeshua's death from His life is a sales gimmick on the part of evangelicals, designed to increase the emotional appeal and minimize the buyer's commitment. Yeshua calls His followers to a sacrificial life unto death, not a life of self indulgence, lived without accountability.

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Re: Is everything connected to the crucifixion?

Post #10

Post by Checkpoint »

bluethread wrote:
Checkpoint wrote:
And this very explicit word on his own "blood-atonement" being servanthood:
Matthew 20:

25 But Jesus called them to him and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great ones exercise authority over them.
26 It shall not be so among you. But whoever would be great among you must be your servant,
27 and whoever would be first among you must be your bondslave,

28 even as the Son of Man came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many".
"blood-atonement" is not explicit in that passage, what is explicit is His sacrificial life. His death is implicit as part of that life. This isolation of Yeshua's death from His life is a sales gimmick on the part of evangelicals, designed to increase the emotional appeal and minimize the buyer's commitment. Yeshua calls His followers to a sacrificial life unto death, not a life of self indulgence, lived without accountability.
Indeed.

Peter put it this way:

1 Peter 1:

21 For to this you have been called, because Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example, so that you might follow in his steps.
22 He committed no sin, neither was deceit found in his mouth.
23 When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten, but continued entrusting himself to him who judges justly.

24 He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.

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