Eternal Hell

[amortalman]

I have two questions primarily for Christians.

1) If your brand of religion teaches that unbelievers will be judged by God and cast into Hell and the Lake of Fire for eternity to suffer there with no possibility of death or escape, is this action by God a just punishment, and why?

2) The second question is purely hypothetical and reaches way out there. If your God gave you permission to do as you please concerning eternal Hell, to keep it, or to abolish it in favor of, say, annihilation, would you keep it or do away with it?

NOTE: In regards to question number one I'm thinking about the story told by Jesus of the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke chapter 16. The Lake of Fire is mentioned in Revelation 20:10-15 and 21:8.

To me, an eternity of suffering in Hell defies logic and any sense of compassion what-so-ever. During my years as a Christian in an evangelical church, I've heard many preachers preface a sermon on Hell by saying they don't like to talk about it and don't like the concept of it but they must preach it because that's what the Bible teaches. I was once a part of a Biblical teaching program for children 2nd through 6th grade. I can only imagine the nightmares some of them had after being told that without Jesus they would go to Hell forever. Someone might argue that it's better that than to go to Hell. But does the fear tactic really work, and if it does, is that the best way, to scare the hell out of them?

In my understanding of the Bible, and what is being taught to millions of people in evangelical churches around the world, there are two kinds of people who will be cast into Hell. Those who have never heard the gospel and those how have rejected the gospel after having heard it. According to that teaching, there are countless millions of poor souls being tormented in Hell right now because they never had an opportunity to hear about Christ. Furthermore, there are hundreds if not thousands that are dying every day and going to Hell for lack of an opportunity to decide. Is that just?

Finally, I'm hopeful that the second question will cut to the Christians heart concerning the doctrine of Hell and reveal the insanity of it. To me, someone who would keep Hell if given the chance to abolish it is a Sadist of the worse kind. But then again, if a Christian says that he would do away with Hell is he demonstrating that he is more merciful than God?

What say you?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 209 by ttruscott]

If this uncreated non-territory is referred to by the words "the outer darkness" then it was a place outside of all creation in which the only thing in it will be those who made themselves eternally evil by their free will decision to reject YHWH's claims to deity.

Couple a questins:

1. To me, someone using words like "uncreated" and "non-territory" that is "outside of all creation" means a place that just doesn't EXIST. What kind of a territory is a NON-TERRITORY? So, if you think that Hell is REAL, then it at least HAS to exist.

2. Who wants to be eternally evil? Can't we get fed up of Hell and then want to be eternally good, instead? I think it would take me less than a minute to figure out being evil isn't what it's all cracked up to be.


3. Was the Bible written by stupid people FOR insanely stupid people? How long does it take to figure out that fire kinda hurts? If God is so darn tooting good all the time, why is he using those THREATS?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 210 by Tetragrammaton]

Whoever wrote the Bible were way better at poetry than reasoning, that's for sure.

Not really, it depends on the reason why the authors is introducing the idea of the believer to be a submissive slave to the fascist roman authorities.

For the authorities it was quite convenient and very reasonable thing to do.

Darn, and I was getting all excited by this new idea of mine.
( new for me, that is )

Let's not introduce the Roman authorities here... Parts of the Bible were written before any Romans had anything to say about the Yahweh believers.

BUT I think that it would be safe to say that the Bible seems to promote a patriarchal society, where "father knows best, and if you don't obey Dad, there will be Hell to pay, let me tell YOU !"

I wonder if the people worshiping the jealous, vindictive, demanding male god Yahweh had that kind of society FIRST, of it that society BECAME authoritarian, misogynistic, punishing, warring and bigoted later.

Lost to history, I presume.

So I have to agree with you... YES.
IF their intent was to threaten gullible people into submission, fear works best.
Just ask Trump.

Maybe the authors WERE dealing with very gullible, easy to frighten, dependent people. And so, the threats, as utterly stupid as they might sound to us today, in our more ADVANCED world, might have been the state of the "moral art" back then.

As completely DISGUSTING as it may be to our more modern sensibilities.

[shnarkle]

I have two questions primarily for Christians.

1) If your brand of religion teaches that unbelievers will be judged by God and cast into Hell and the Lake of Fire for eternity to suffer there with no possibility of death or escape, is this action by God a just punishment, and why?

I don't have a brand of religion, but if I did my brand would have a God that would let the unbelievers go to hell for eternity if they wanted to. God would let them choose.

Who would ever choose an eternal hell? Yet I contend that you are correct!

Who would choose to be miserable, yet people do this all the time. People don't consider that we all have choices. What we choose to do is to blame others for our misery. We say things like: "They make me so mad". People relinquish control over their very emotions, feelings, destiny etc. This is what people are accustomed to. When people are growling and gnashing their teeth, they're going to find themselves doing this because it's all they know anymore. Where else would they want to go than a place where "there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth"?

It seems that if we could only chose by our free will to go to hell or it is indeed unjust, that hell was a consequence to another choice that overrode the fear of hell which must not have been proven.

I therefore contend that our choice was to accept YHWH was our creator GOD with the consequence of becoming HIS elect under HIS promise of salvation OR to reject HIS claims to be our GOD by trusting instead to the belief HE was not a GOD but a false god and a liar and none of HIS warnings of the dire consequences of hell nor HIS promises of salvation had any merit in reality at all.

No one chose hell, some just chose to reject YHWH as their GOD expecting it to all blow over but willing to go to hell rather than bow to HIM if HE ever proved to be GOD.

Most people don't understand YHWH, so I doubt that they can reject what they don't understand. God chooses; we don't. Jesus says, "You didn't choose me, I chose you."

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 213 by shnarkle]


[center]If shnarkle wants your opinion, he will give it to you[/center]

Who would choose to be miserable, yet people do this all the time.

You should ask them if they are choosing or not. I will trust what they have to say about themselves, and not someone else.

You aren't the judge of that, my friend.
THEY ARE.

People don't consider that we all have choices.

IF someone doesn't CONSIDER they have a choice, then they don't know that they have one.

If only someone could reach out to everyone to tell them they are wrong.
They are so, so wrong.

If only there was SOMEONE out there who was so, so right to set them straight?

[Tetragrammaton]

[Replying to post 213 by shnarkle]

What we choose to do is to blame others for our misery.

Yes some people do this but some are justified to do so, especially if they use sound reasoning in judging that.

When you use sound reason to see that the christian god chooses for us to suffer then just forgive us, there is no place for "Most people don't understand YHWH" except for all people especially Christians who do not use reason.

God chooses; we don't. Jesus says, "You didn't choose me, I chose you."

Does that mean we don't have a choice in the matter of choosing god/Jesus?

There goes free will out of the window.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 213 by shnarkle]





[center]There is no WE happening here, my friend.[/center]

What we choose to do is to blame others for our misery.

What I chose to do is to ask people to speak for themselves.
People should NOT presume to put words in my mouth or to read my mind.


They might imagine that they can, but they really can't.
It would be pathetic to even try.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 213 by shnarkle]

What we choose to do is to blame others for our misery.

Yes some people do this but some are justified to do so, especially if they use sound reasoning in judging that.

Perhaps, but ultimately they're just blaming others for their misery; it's still a choice, and probably a bad one; although as I said before, some people have lost this ability to make a conscious choice. if someone wrongs me, I have a choice to pass judgement on them or blame them. This is pointless. I can ignore this altogether, even forgive them and move on; the sooner the better. The sooner I put it behind me, the better my life becomes right now. Playing the blame game is a fool's errand.

When you use sound reason to see that the christian god chooses for us to suffer then just forgive us, there is no place for "Most people don't understand YHWH" except for all people especially Christians who do not use reason.

Not sure where you're getting this from, but then we all have our own ideas of what sound reason is supposed to be.

God chooses; we don't. Jesus says, "You didn't choose me, I chose you."

Does that mean we don't have a choice in the matter of choosing god/Jesus?

There goes free will out of the window.

Not really. It just means that humanity's free will isn't what determines who God is going to choose.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 213 by shnarkle]





[center]There is no WE happening here, my friend.[/center]

What we choose to do is to blame others for our misery.

What I chose to do is to ask people to speak for themselves.
People should NOT presume to put words in my mouth or to read my mind.

As completely DISGUSTING as it may be to our more modern sensibilities.

[amortalman]

[Replying to post 204 by shnarkle]

Hello Shnarkle,

I spent a long time today replying to your remarks in post 204 but I had to leave it before it was posted to attend to some business. When I returned I accidentally turned my computer off losing everything I had written. I'm simply not up to rewriting it all right now.

But I think most of the issues you expressed could be cleared up if you take note that I prefaced each question with an IF. I was reflecting a view of God, the Bible, and Hell that the vast majority of evangelicals believe (and that I once believed) and I was interested to hear how they might defend them. I thought my first question was pretty clear on that but apparently not. The second question was a kind of follow-up to the first, still speaking to the same group of believers.

For example, you said that I presupposed an eternal hell. I did not. I simply aimed my questions to those who do. I appreciate your remarks and it's interesting to read the opinions of opposing beliefs, but the questions weren't really meant for anyone with alternate views.

Thanks.
A

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 204 by shnarkle]

Hello Shnarkle,

I spent a long time today replying to your remarks in post 204 but I had to leave it before it was posted to attend to some business. When I returned I accidentally turned my computer off losing everything I had written. I'm simply not up to rewriting it all right now.

I've never had anything like that happen here, but I can't tell you how many times I've done the same thing and couldn't help but entertain the idea of evacuating my cranial vault with a 12 gauge shotgun. The only difference was that I had just finished composing an enormous wall of text, proof read it and done a few rewrites as well; hours of work vanished in a fraction of a second into some netherworld of cyberspace. I'd call it a glimpse of hell.

My problem is that I'll start to rest the palm of my left hand on the keys immediately to the left of the space bar. Over time, one or more of these keys eventually gets to the point where it is far enough down to engage the sensor and poof; the futility of my pointless life stampedes into rampaging clarity. About three weeks ago, I woke up in the middle of the night and ran to the kitchen grabbed a screwdriver out of the drawer and popped those three keys out. Haven't had that problem since. I'm not over that feeling though so I don't keep firearms close by anymore.

But I think most of the issues you expressed could be cleared up if you take note that I prefaced each question with an IF. I was reflecting a view of God, the Bible, and Hell that the vast majority of evangelicals believe (and that I once believed) and I was interested to hear how they might defend them. I thought my first question was pretty clear on that but apparently not. The second question was a kind of follow-up to the first, still speaking to the same group of believers.

I took it as a general hypothetical question, and as such it seemed appropriate to show that the first hypothetical question was invalid from what you gleaned from the text and the second one kind of illogical from the parameters of your question.

For example, you said that I presupposed an eternal hell. I did not. I simply aimed my questions to those who do.

Technically, I was dealing with the question of an already existing hell created by God, so there is no effective difference. I actually answered that question from a quite similar perspective, albeit not exactly the same.

I appreciate your remarks and it's interesting to read the opinions of opposing beliefs, but the questions weren't really meant for anyone with alternate views.

Thanks.
A

The question stated "primarily". I was simply responding from a secondary perspective. More importantly, my response doesn't negate your question in that if an all just God punishes the damned in eternal torment, there is a just reason for it. Why? Because by definition a just God is ruling justly.

My response to your second question was well within the boundaries of your parameters.