Does God change his mind?

OnceConvinced · Post by **OnceConvinced** » Mon Feb 13, 2017 4:52 pm

A Christian member of our forum recently pointed out a bible contradiction for all to see:

This verse was presented first:
Numbers 23:19 "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."

The Christian then attempted to trump it with a contradictory scripture where God DOES change his mind, thus exposing a blatant bible contradiction:

Jeremiah 18:8 "But if that nation about which I spoke turns from its evil way, I'll change my mind about the disaster that I had planned for it."

Here are further verses that show God changing his mind:

Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Amos 7:3
The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Jeremiah 18:10
if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. (wow this is a verse where God says he will break his promise!!)

So questions for debate:

Does Got change his mind?
If he does change his mind, how do we know he hasn't changed his mind about much of what he expected from us in the New Testament?
If he does change his mind, how can we really know what he wants of us today?

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:22 am

Justin108 wrote:
They can make pretty accurate predictions, but unless it's literally impossible for me to change my mind, this person stands a chance of making wrong predictions about me.

We are the ones that make it impossible to change our minds. We do it to ourselves.

Example. If I told you change your mind right now to believe in God and say a prayer to Him using His name and believe you're speaking with the Creator? Would you let yourself do that?

Judas made his decisions about what kind of person he was before he even met Jesus. Just like your choices in being an atheist and all the things you have cemented yourself in believing. No one is making you cement yourself in your beliefs.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:38 am

Justin108 wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:Because we can 'what if' back and forth until the end of time. Yet history will not change. Judas did what he did and your what if's will not change it. You've already lost the argument almost 2000 years ago.
Actually my argument is the God of the Bible can see the future. The fact that Judas did what he did 2000 years ago does absolutely nothing to my argument.

Than why keep bring it up?

We're not arguing over whether the prophecy was fulfilled. The argument is how did God know it would happen. My argument is because he could see the future. Your argument is because he.. guessed?

Your argument as I see it, is that you think that time is a fixed straight line. Like watching a DVD. Yet all indications are in the Bible that it's not. Yes, He does guess on human actions. He'd have to, otherwise we'd have no choice. He doesn't guess on our degree of knowledge, our past or our desires. Yet with that info He can make a very accurate guess. Yet, if we don't do what He expects, He has other ways as the Bible says He does.

2timothy316 wrote: I don't know. Yet unlike you I don't think people have to give up freedom of choice to make sure it was 30 pieces of silver.
If God did not make sure it was 30 pieces of silver by breaking the Roman's free will, then how did he? You insist that God did not need to break anyone's free will, yet you cannot explain how else God made sure it was 30 pieces of silver?

I don't have to explain it because how that was accomplished is not the Bible. You're speculating God took away someone's freewill to accomplish it. All I do know is that there is no reason to take away a person's freewill to make it happen and the Bible doesn't support.

This argument is starting to go in circles. Believe as you wish.

Justin108 · Post by **Justin108** » Thu Feb 23, 2017 7:57 am

2timothy316 wrote: We are the ones that make it impossible to change our minds. We do it to ourselves.

Wait so now it's impossible to change our minds? In post 23, you were pretty particular about our ability to change our minds at the last minute

Your exact words were "Perhaps Jehovah might know your heart but He doesn't know what choice is going to win out until the time comes"

Please try to be consistent. Is it possible for us to change our minds or not?

2timothy316 wrote: Example. If I told you change your mind right now to believe in God and say a prayer to Him using His name and believe you're speaking with the Creator? Would you let yourself do that?

If you gave me a good reason to I might. Judas had a pretty good reason to change his mind about Jesus. He witnessed miracles, heard promises of heaven, etc. Judas had pretty good reason to change his mind. Or do you insist that Judas changing his mind was literally impossible?

2timothy316 wrote: Judas made his decisions about what kind of person he was before he even met Jesus.

So did Mary Magdalene. Wasn't she a prostitute at one point? And didn't her life with Jesus change her mind? Isn't it possible that Judas' time with Jesus may have changed Judas' mind? It took literally one experience on the road to Damascus to change Paul's mind, so surely several years of following Jesus could have changed Judas' mind?

Was it literally impossible for Judas to change his mind? Yes or no?

2timothy316 wrote:
Justin108 wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:Because we can 'what if' back and forth until the end of time. Yet history will not change. Judas did what he did and your what if's will not change it. You've already lost the argument almost 2000 years ago.
Actually my argument is the God of the Bible can see the future. The fact that Judas did what he did 2000 years ago does absolutely nothing to my argument.
Than why keep bring it up?

Because you seem to be confused about what my argument actually is. You said "You've already lost the argument almost 2000 years". I fail to see how exactly I lost the argument 2000 years ago? Care to elaborate what you meant?

2timothy316 wrote: Yes, He does guess on human actions

So he can be wrong?

2timothy316 wrote:
If God did not make sure it was 30 pieces of silver by breaking the Roman's free will, then how did he? You insist that God did not need to break anyone's free will, yet you cannot explain how else God made sure it was 30 pieces of silver?
I don't have to explain it because how that was accomplished is not the Bible. You're speculating God took away someone's freewill to accomplish it

Actually, my position is that God knew the future. Your claim that he didn't forced me to conclude the only other possibilities are
a) Guess-work
b) Removing free will by forcing the Romans to offer exactly 30 pieces of silver

If you would like to add a third possibility, please do so

2timothy316 wrote: All I do know is that there is no reason to take away a person's freewill to make it happen and the Bible doesn't support.

If you "know" this then you should have no problem explaining how else God would have achieved this

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:48 am

Justin108 wrote:
If you "know" this then you should have no problem explaining how else God would have achieved this

I 'know' because the Bible says people have a choice. The Bible doesn't explain exactly how He carries out His plans. I ate breakfast today, do I have to tell you step by step how and what I ate for you to believe me? No.

Do you believe the following to be true?

"For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will come to the Jews from another source..." Esther 4:14

If you don't then nothing else I show you will matter. Even if I did know how God gets His prophecies to come true, I doubt you'd believe me because your mind is clearly made up. How did you put it? Locked in cement?

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Thu Feb 23, 2017 8:51 am

Justin108 wrote:
2timothy316 wrote: We are the ones that make it impossible to change our minds. We do it to ourselves.
Wait so now it's impossible to change our minds? In post 23, you were pretty particular about our ability to change our minds at the last minute

Your exact words were "Perhaps Jehovah might know your heart but He doesn't know what choice is going to win out until the time comes"

Please try to be consistent. Is it possible for us to change our minds or not?

Let's keep it simple. Addressing things one step at a time one last time.

Will you change your mind and believe in God? Yes or no.

Justin108 · Post by **Justin108** » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:01 am

2timothy316 wrote:
If you "know" this then you should have no problem explaining how else God would have achieved this
I 'know' because the Bible says people have a choice.

I didn't ask you how you knew, I asked you to please explain how else God would have achieved the prophecy of Judas being paid exactly 30 pieces of silver

2timothy316 wrote: The Bible doesn't explain exactly how He carries out His plans

I have a pretty solid explanation: God knew the future

2timothy316 wrote: I ate breakfast today, do I have to tell you step by step how and what I ate for you to believe me? No.

No because it's pretty easy for me to imagine how you would eat breakfast. I cannot, however, imagine how God could possibly make sure Judas gets paid exactly 30 pieces of silver without either knowing the future or forcing the Roman. I cannot think of a third possibility. Contrast that to your breakfast example, I can think of several ways you would have eaten breakfast.

2timothy316 wrote: Do you believe the following to be true?

"For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will come to the Jews from another source..." Esther 4:14

I'm not exactly sure of the context of this verse so I cannot say whether or not I believe it to be true. I'm not exactly sure what the verse is even saying

2timothy316 wrote: Even if I did know how God gets His prophecies to come true, I doubt you'd believe me because your mind is clearly made up.

This is nothing but a cop-out to avoid further discussion

2timothy316 wrote: How did you put it? Locked in cement?

When did I ever use this phrase?

2timothy316 wrote: Will you change your mind and believe in God? Yes or no.

I already answered you. I will (that is a 'Yes') if you can give me good reason to

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:15 am

Justin108 wrote:
2timothy316 wrote: Do you believe the following to be true?

"For if you remain silent at this time, relief and deliverance will come to the Jews from another source..." Esther 4:14
I'm not exactly sure of the context of this verse so I cannot say whether or not I believe it to be true. I'm not exactly sure what the verse is even saying

Esther was to beg the king for favor in behalf of the Jews. Esther 4:8
The above is what her uncle said to her if she chose not to do it. If she didn't then relief and deliverance would come from another source. Do we know the source? Do we need to know the other plan to know there is another plan? No. You keep insisting on answers that the Bible doesn't provide. Wanting me to speculate like you do. Speculation is pointless. Yet if you believe the above scripture to be true, then we don't need to know all the other 'sources' so that God ensures His plans come true for all of His other prophecies.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:22 am

Justin108 wrote:
2timothy316 wrote: Will you change your mind and believe in God? Yes or no.
I already answered you. I will (that is a 'Yes') if you can give me good reason to

If I don't then your mind will stay unchanged.

Who is keeping it unchanged? Me? No, you're making the choice.

Let's flip it, let's say I did give you a 'good reason'. Because you had a 'good reason' in mind and I met that criteria, did I change your mind or did you? Did I predestine your mind change? No. You predestined yourself to change your mind based on criteria you set.

It's all your choice.

Justin108 · Post by **Justin108** » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:30 am

2timothy316 wrote: If I don't then your mind will stay unchanged.

Not necessarily. It is possible for someone else to provide good reason for me to believe in God. Life is complex like that. A lot of things can influence how we think. Similarly, a lot of things could have influenced Judas

2timothy316 wrote: Who is keeping it unchanged? Me? No, you're making the choice.

Are you implying that belief is a choice?

2timothy316 wrote: Let's flip it, let's say I did give you a 'good reason'. Because you had a 'good reason' in mind and I met that criteria, did I change your mind or did you?

You did. If I already had a good reason to believe in God then I would. The fact that you changed my mind from disbelief to belief indicates that you introduced something foreign into my mind that I have not yet considered before.

2timothy316 wrote: Did I predestine your mind change? No. You predestined yourself to change your mind based on criteria you set.

It's all your choice.

If it's all my choice then surely it was all Judas' choice as well. Ergo, Judas could have changed his mind and the prophecy would have been false

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Thu Feb 23, 2017 9:50 am

Justin108 wrote:
If it's all my choice then surely it was all Judas' choice as well. Ergo, Judas could have changed his mind and the prophecy would have been false

No. Someone else would have taken his place to make sure it would come true. I don't know why you can't except that. If 'another source' could rise up if Esther didn't do what her uncle told her to do, why is it so hard to fathom that a betrayer of Jesus couldn't rise from another source? There wasn't a shortage of material driven greedy thieves in Jesus' time.

A road that you normally use to go to work is closed. If you don't get to work you will be fired. Do you find an alternate route or do you give up and stay home? Or better yet, there is a leak in your house and it's flooding. The first plumber you call won't do it, do you throw you hands in the air and say, 'my house is ruined, there is no one else to help'. Or do you find another plumber?

I would think God would love to have the problem of not being able to find a greedy person that loves money more than anything else.