Does God change his mind?

[OnceConvinced]

A Christian member of our forum recently pointed out a bible contradiction for all to see:

This verse was presented first:
Numbers 23:19 "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."

The Christian then attempted to trump it with a contradictory scripture where God DOES change his mind, thus exposing a blatant bible contradiction:

Jeremiah 18:8 "But if that nation about which I spoke turns from its evil way, I'll change my mind about the disaster that I had planned for it."

Here are further verses that show God changing his mind:

Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Amos 7:3
The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Jeremiah 18:10
if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. (wow this is a verse where God says he will break his promise!!)


So questions for debate:

Does Got change his mind?
If he does change his mind, how do we know he hasn't changed his mind about much of what he expected from us in the New Testament?
If he does change his mind, how can we really know what he wants of us today?

[Justin108]

Actually, now that I'm looking in the Bible I know of no prophecy that says it would be the chief priest to be the ones that would pay. Just that 30 pieces of silver was to be the set price by the 'sons of Israel' as that is what the had valued God to be worth centuries before. Then it played out again for the price of betraying Jesus. It appears for a long time to pay 30 pieces of silver for something was supposed to be an insult. It was nothing new.

There are plenty of ways to insult people. How did God know they would use this insult specifically?

[onewithhim]

A Christian member of our forum recently pointed out a bible contradiction for all to see:

This verse was presented first:
Numbers 23:19 "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."

The Christian then attempted to trump it with a contradictory scripture where God DOES change his mind, thus exposing a blatant bible contradiction:

Jeremiah 18:8 "But if that nation about which I spoke turns from its evil way, I'll change my mind about the disaster that I had planned for it."

Here are further verses that show God changing his mind:

Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Amos 7:3
The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Jeremiah 18:10
if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. (wow this is a verse where God says he will break his promise!!)


So questions for debate:

Does Got change his mind?
If he does change his mind, how do we know he hasn't changed his mind about much of what he expected from us in the New Testament?
If he does change his mind, how can we really know what he wants of us today?

God doesn't change His mind and He does not contradict Himself.

The "contradictions" above are actually confirmations that God honors His commitments!

God chose one nation and gave them special significance as God's chosen people:

The Lord thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth. (Deuteronomy 7:6)

God selected this group to illustrate God's power on earth to other nations. That is, when the children of Israel kept their part of the covenant, God would cause them to prosper:

If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit... more good stuff (Leviticus 26:3-4)

On the other hand, when they disobeyed God, they would be severely punished:

But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; And ye despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant: I will also do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it...more bad stuff (Leviticus 26:14-16)

Therefore, others could observe the children of Israel and witness the consequences of obeying and disobeying God's commandments. However, no matter how great the punishments were, God promised to never break the covenant or totally destroy the children of Israel:

And yet for all that, when they be in the land of their enemies, I will not cast them away, neither will I abhor them, to destroy them utterly, and to break my covenant with them: for I am the Lord their God. (Leviticus 26:44)

Is this the case? The Old Testament details cycles of disobedience, punishment, repentance, and forgiveness of the children of Israel. If these cycles were not so bloody, they might be comical:

And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord, and forgat the Lord their God, and served Baalim and the groves. (Judges 3:7)

Therefore the anger of the Lord was hot against Israel... (Judges 3:8)

And when the children of Israel cried unto the Lord, the Lord raised up a deliverer to the children of Israel... (Judges 3:9)

And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the Lord... (Judges 3:12)

And he gathered unto him the children of Ammon and Amalek, and went and smote Israel... (Judges 3:13)

But when the children of Israel cried unto the Lord, the Lord raised them up a deliverer... (Judges 3:15)

And the children of Israel again did evil in the sight of the Lord... (Judges 4:1)

And the Lord sold them into the hand of Jabin king of Canaan... (Judges 4:2)

And the children of Israel cried unto the Lord... (Judges 4:3)

And the children of Israel did evil in the sight of the Lord: and the Lord delivered them into the hand of Midian seven years. (Judges 6:1)

And Israel was greatly impoverished because of the Midianites; and the children of Israel cried unto the Lord. (Judges 6:6)

(Gideon sent to deliver the children of Israel)
And the Lord said unto Gideon, By the three hundred men that lapped will I save you, and deliver the Midianites into thine hand...(Judges 7:7)

And it came to pass, as soon as Gideon was dead, that the children of Israel turned again, and went a whoring after Baalim, and made Baalberith their god. (Judges 8:33)

And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the Lord... (Judges 10:6)

And the anger of the Lord was hot against Israel, and he sold them into the hands of the Philistines... (Judges 10:7)

And the children of Israel cried unto the Lord, saying, We have sinned against thee... (Judges 10:10)

God began to show some impatience with the children of Israel after this last episode by suggesting that He would no longer deliver them. However, in the end, he kept his part of the covenant when they repented:

Yet ye have forsaken me, and served other gods: wherefore I will deliver you no more. Go and cry unto the gods which ye have chosen; let them deliver you in the time of your tribulation. And the children of Israel said unto the Lord, We have sinned: do thou unto us whatsoever seemeth good unto thee, deliver us only, we pray thee, this day. And they put away the strange gods from among them, and served the Lord: and his soul was grieved for the misery of Israel. (Judges 10:13-16)

Was the cycle finally broken? Had the children of Israel finally learned their lesson? Of course not:

And the children of Israel did evil again in the sight of the Lord; and the Lord delivered them into the hand of the Philistines forty years. (Judges 13:1)

God then sent Samson to deliver them from the hands of the Philistines. Outsiders can observe this history and know that the children of Israel are God's chosen people. When they disobey God they are severely punished. When they repent and ask for forgiveness they prosper until the next cycle of disobedience. During the entire process, God never breaks His part of the covenant!

The "contradictions" which you pointed out are simply God's chosen people during a change from obedience to disobedience or visa-versa.

And these are not contradictions. They are God complying with the terms of the covenant between God and His chosen people.

That is, when they obey His commandments they proper with lots of good stuff.

And when they disobey His commandments they are punished severely with lots of bad stuff.

When they turn from their evil ways -- God stops the bad stuff and switches them bad to good stuff.

Here is the example from Jeremiah:

8 If that nation, against whom I have pronounced, turn from their evil, I will repent of the evil that I thought to do unto them.
9 And at what instant I shall speak concerning a nation, and concerning a kingdom, to build and to plant it;
10 If it do evil in my sight, that it obey not my voice, then I will repent of the good, wherewith I said I would benefit them.

This is exactly what God said He would do! He would bless them when they followed His commandments and curse them when they disobeyed His commandments:

If ye walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit... more good stuff (Leviticus 26:3-4)

On the other hand, when they disobeyed God, they would be severely punished:

But if ye will not hearken unto me, and will not do all these commandments; And ye despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that ye will not do all my commandments, but that ye break my covenant: I will also do this unto you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and ye shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it...more bad stuff (Leviticus 26:14-16)

Jeremiah 18 is confirmation that God does not change His mind, but abides by His covenants. They were being punished because of disobeying God laws, but turned from their wicked ways, so God began the prospering phase again. When they transitioned back to disobeying God, they were punished again.

In no way are any of the "contradictions" mentioned in the original posting real contradictions.

They are affirmations!

Very good post! I agree....God doesn't change His mind as if He had erred, and He always kept His end of the covenant. He always said that if the people stopped listening to Him He would cast them away.

[2timothy316]

Actually, now that I'm looking in the Bible I know of no prophecy that says it would be the chief priest to be the ones that would pay. Just that 30 pieces of silver was to be the set price by the 'sons of Israel' as that is what the had valued God to be worth centuries before. Then it played out again for the price of betraying Jesus. It appears for a long time to pay 30 pieces of silver for something was supposed to be an insult. It was nothing new.

There are plenty of ways to insult people. How did God know they would use this insult specifically?

I don't know. The Bible doesn't give a step by step explanation on how God made this come about. Yet I have no reason to jump to the conclusion that someone lost their freewill to make it happen. I'm not doing the 'what if' game either.

[onewithhim]

Yes God does changes His mind when there is good reason.

Jehovah was going to destroy Nineveh but because they changed their ways He changed His mind.

"When the true God saw what they did, how they had turned back from their evil ways, he reconsidered the calamity that he said he would bring on them, and he did not bring it." Jonah 3:10

Did God not know that Nineveh was going to change their ways?

No. God doesn't make decisions for us. If He did then there would be no reason to send people to preach or warn. People would be born with faith.

"However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach?" - Ro 10:4

faith is not a possession of all people. - 2 Thessalonians 3:2

It sounds like you're saying that God is not omniscient. If God is omniscient this doesn't negate free will, or one's ability to make decisions for ourselves.

You don't realize that God can choose to not know certain things.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 104 by onewithhim]



[center]
Not knowing what you know about... er.. something like that[/center]

You don't realize that God can choose to not know certain things.

How do you see working?

This is what I'm thinking:


God thinks about X and then says to himself:

"X oh, I don't like X at all... I can't think about X, X is no good to think about, so I will choose to no longer think about X."

Sounds like someone is in DENIAL about X.


How do you see it working?

[onewithhim]

Yes God does changes His mind when there is good reason.

Jehovah was going to destroy Nineveh but because they changed their ways He changed His mind.

"When the true God saw what they did, how they had turned back from their evil ways, he reconsidered the calamity that he said he would bring on them, and he did not bring it." Jonah 3:10

Did God not know that Nineveh was going to change their ways?

No. God doesn't make decisions for us. If He did then there would be no reason to send people to preach or warn. People would be born with faith.

"However, how will they call on him if they have not put faith in him? How, in turn, will they put faith in him about whom they have not heard? How, in turn, will they hear without someone to preach?" - Ro 10:4

faith is not a possession of all people. - 2 Thessalonians 3:2

It sounds like you're saying that God is not omniscient. If God is omniscient this doesn't negate free will, or one's ability to make decisions for ourselves.

Omniscient is a word that gets thrown around a lot but does omniscient include all of time? The past, sure but the future? The Bible says, So my word that goes forth from my mouth will prove to be. It will not return to me without results, but it will certainly do that in which I have delighted, and it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it."Isaiah 55:10, 11.

That last part, 'it will have certain success in that for which I have sent it'. This means God does something to make His Word return with the results He wants. But when we read this is it really saying that He knows everything in the future? Does it also really suggest that every future event is 'fixed'? No. Apparently a future event is only 'fixed' if He is actively involved in making it happen. If it was 'fixed' then why send anything?

One person explained it this way. If we want to get from our house to a friends house we have never been to before, we use a GPS system. From this we can a route. But what if a road is closed. No big deal, the GPS system is able to find a new route. The same is with God's plans. He knows all the routes and if the free will of a person changes then another route is ready to go. The difference is that God will get what He wants to come true, done.

What good is the bare possibility of performance in a world which is essentially uncontrolled by God and random as to the outcome of events? What good are God's pre-ordained general possibilities in a world governed by the hearts and minds of specific individuals-especially individuals who can fall from grace, if they refuse to honor, God's "pre-ordained possibilities" for doing good works? Is God dependent on our autonomous good works in order to make all things work together for good?

How does God guarantee the future existence of the whole without guaranteeing the future existence of the parts?

So omniscient as far everything that is happening right now, down to the smallest detail, yes. As far as knowing everyone's future no. You'd be right, if everyone's future is fixed then there is no reason for a Bible. We'd be like animals. Living on basic instinct. Following rails that we can never change. It's like watching a movie. Once the movie is made and burned to a DVD, that's it. No matter how many times we watch the movie the ending is always the same.

Knowledge doesn't necessarily indicate coercion. However, the father does "draw" those whom he has chosen to Christ. A better translation would be "drag". Either way your choice is irrelevant because you basically can't choose to follow God in the first place. Paul is pretty clear in pointing this out. No one even wants to follow or please God.

With our Fallen natures, inherited from Adam, we all would rather call our own shots. We all like being independent. But we still have free will. We can use our marvelous minds to decide---weighing all possible avenues---whether or not we want to trust God to be a loving rule-maker. He has already made rules/laws concerning the physical universe & our planet Earth, as has already been brought out. Are we wise for respecting those laws? Why do we choose to respect those laws? Are we programmed to respect them? No....we see the value in respecting them. We don't want to get smashed on the rocks by jumping off a cliff. We don't want to drown or get eaten by sharks by swimming alone from New York to Portugal.

So, we are capable of making up our minds whether or not to listen to God's rules about how we treat other people and how we should treat Him. We are able to think, "I want to know more about my Creator and what He is like, and what His purposes are for this planet and human beings. I think I will study His thoughts in this book, the Bible, and then follow His will as closely as I can."

[JehovahsWitness]

I don't know. The Bible doesn't give a step by step explanation on how God made this come about. Yet I have no reason to jump to the conclusion that someone lost their freewill to make it happen. I'm not doing the 'what if' game either.

JAMES 1:13
When under trial, let no one say: I am being tried by God. For with evil things God cannot be tried, nor does he himself try anyone. (also see Deut 34:2)

• I think you're looking at things from the wrong angle. God didn't manipulate events to ensure his words came true he merely looked into the future and was able to predict what would happen, then had it reported it in advance as prophecy.

As I said earlier, foreknowledge is not causation. If I knew someone was going to fall of a cliff, is this the same as scheming to get them to a cliffs edge and then pushing them? What if I was nowhere near the event at the time? Does it no longer qualify as a prediction?

God does not deal with evil, he did not manipulate events or collaborate or use evil men to ensure his son suffered and died ... that was Satan. Jehovah he did not arrange for a bribe to be in place, He did not use his power to make sure someone would be at hand to spit in his son's face to fulfill that or any of the other Messianic Prophecies pertaining to his son's torture.

God allowed these things to happen, he knew they would happen he had no hand in making them happen because he cannot do any thing that is evil and his goodness can have no collaboration with wickedness.



Attributing to God the manipulations of Satan is what makes Satan happiest of all.



JW

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 27 by Justin108]

The answer is still no.

So I am to understand that God is not in fact omniscient then?

Omniscient is a word that gets thrown around a lot but does omniscient include all of time? The past, sure but the future?

Isn't the very nature of a prophecy the ability to see the future? And how many prophecies has God made?

He can see the general outline of what the future will bring, but He chooses to not know DETAILS, such as every individual's identity. Having said that, He sometimes chooses to know, like who would let the Jews go back to Jerusalem after the Babylonian captivity (Cyrus) some two hundred years in advance, but not always.

.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 106 by onewithhim]




[center]
Inherited "fallen nature".
Inherited how?
Genetics?[/center]

With our Fallen natures, inherited from Adam,

How do you see this inheritance working?
Do we have genetic markers for "fallen nature"?

[William]

[Replying to post 107 by JehovahsWitness]

GOD is connected to the individual through the common attribute of consciousness and as such can 'spy' on the individuals thoughts and actions.
Times that by how many individuals there are, and great insight is achieved through the data gathered, analyzed and assimilated into the agenda.

Therefore, while many individuals might act as barriers to that agenda, they are like rocks in flowing water and do not seriously interfere with the overall agenda.

There have been ebbs and flows throughout human history of course, but this in itself is not a permanent barrier in relation to the agenda.

Different aspects (groups) are at different levels of supporting the agenda and none are permitted to judge the others as less for that.

One needs to understand how the mind of GOD works in relation to human consciousness and the agenda.

GOD is able to 'see' into most likely futures based on the data of collective human experience in the present and make accurate predictions based on the data.

The data is subject to change depending on the collective human condition. Groups are surrounded by the various walls created by their belief systems and one does well to be able to find a way in which to navigate so that the walls are not a barrier.

This involves getting a GODs-eye view of the actual situation+supporting the agenda. Thus, knowing for sure exactly what the agenda is, cannot be 'seen' while the individual is firmly locked behind their particular wall of dogma.

No one is really exempt from this process.