Contradictory statements

[Zzyzx]

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Contradictory statements

Words attributed to Jesus by Luke and Matthew (whoever they may have been) appear to be contradictory (as well as perhaps irrational -- particularly those cited by "Luke").

Luke 14:26 If any man come to Me and hate not his father and mother, and wife and children, and brethren and sisters, yea, and his own life also, he cannot be My disciple.

Matthew 22:39 And the second is like it: Love your neighbor as yourself.

Matthew 7:12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets

Love your neighbor " but hate your father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters (and yourself)?

Do unto others (hate them) as you would have them do to you (hate you)?

In psychiatry and psychology, maintaining two or more contradictory statements or positions is viewed as an indication of schizophrenia . . .

Do the statements quoted seem like wise words from a wonderful teacher / leader / preacher?

[Blastcat]

[center]
Apparently, love and hate aren't even emotions[/center]

We can call that mixed emotions.

Or love is not an emotion as I think. I have understood Bible so that love is rather an attitude (or spirit) than an emotion.

In that case we don't use the word "love" the same way. I use the more common usage found in the dictionaries.

I don't think of emotions as "attitudes" or "spirits" ( whatever you mean by spirits )

But then again, maybe we aren't using the words "emotion" or "attitude" or "love" or "hate" or "spirit" the same way, either.

It's amazing that secular and religious English can be so different, don't you think?

[1213]

[Replying to Blastcat]

It's amazing that secular and religious English can be so different, don't you think?

Yes, it is. And it can be confusing. That is why I usually try to speak only about ideas Bible presents, rather than single words that can have modern and ancient meanings. For example, I think it is in this case good to think, what Bible means if person hates his own life and what it means if person loves neighbor. As shown earlier, hate can mean that person goes and follows Jesus and love means that person doesnt do anything harmful to others. And in that way, I think there is no contradiction. but if we give different meanings to those words, it can lead to problems.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 72 by 1213]




[center]
Mangling the English language for Jesus[/center]

It's amazing that secular and religious English can be so different, don't you think?

Yes, it is. And it can be confusing.

I have to agree.

That is why I usually try to speak only about ideas Bible presents, rather than single words that can have modern and ancient meanings.

There are a whole lot of English words that are IN the English translations of the Bible.

For example, I think it is in this case good to think, what Bible means if person hates his own life and what it means if person loves neighbor.

The idea we are discussing is that a person should hate his family in order to love his neighbors and his enemies. Oddly, that means if his family becomes his enemies, he should love his family. I don't get it. This makes NO sense.

And your definition of hate makes no sense to me at all, either.

As shown earlier, hate can mean that person goes and follows Jesus and love means that person doesnt do anything harmful to others.

WOW.

They sure used the word "hate" differently back then, didn't they?
It means that I really don't understand most of the Bible parts that use the word.

Here is a random example of another passage that talks about hate... I think you want to use the word "hate" in the Bible as "following Jesus" or something like that.

Here is an interesting passage about hating our relatives:

1 John 4:19-20

We love because God first loved us. Whoever says, I love God, but hates his brother is a liar. The one who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love the God whom he has not seen.


It seems that hate means something different here.
Same Bible, different meaning. Hate seems to be used to mean the very opposite of love.

He who does NOT love his brother... cannot love the God.

In Luke, he says this:

Luke 14:26

"If anyone comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters--yes, even their own life--such a person cannot be my disciple."

I think that what John has to say makes sense. What Luke reports is about as close to insane and evil as I can imagine. Jesus sounds like a death cult leader.

I am not pretending to be a god, but I can sure tell you that in MY opinion, hate is always wrong. Defend someone caught promoting HATE all you like.

Do what you like.. it's your conscience.
Just don't come around HERE talking about hate.

Ok?

And in that way, I think there is no contradiction.

Sure.. you just defined the problem away.
We get a lot of that in here.

Some Christian apologists want to redefine problem words that they find in the Bible.
That's never convincing to outsiders like me.

I call that kind of argument "Ad hoc".

The ad hoc fallacy (Latin: to this) is when you invent a new reason in the moment to fend off your argument from attack. In this case, the reason is your very strange definition of the word "hate".

but if we give different meanings to those words, it can lead to problems.

Making up definitions of inconvenient words to suit your argument doesn't work.
And I have to say that your definition is quite bizarre.

[1213]

...And your definition of hate makes no sense to me at all, either.

You surely dont understand. I am sorry, perhaps I am just too bad in speaking this. But the point was, we can look for example word hate in the Bible and then see what it meant in practice. When Jesus speaks, that disciples should hate their own life, we dont see disciples then killing themselves or harming themselves. So, the hate doesnt mean that people then do evil things. This leads to question, what it meant in practice that person hated his own life? And for that the answer is, they left and followed Jesus. For example, if person would have had house and stuff and nice job, he would have left those and go to Jesus. What do you think it means in practice if person hates his own life?

1 John 4:19-20

We love because God first loved us. Whoever says, I love God, but hates his brother is a liar. The one who does not love his brother whom he has seen cannot love the God whom he has not seen.


It seems that hate means something different here.

Or perhaps brother has different meaning in this case.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 74 by 1213]

You surely dont understand. I am sorry, perhaps I am just too bad in speaking this.

Ok.
But all I can go on is your words.

I wish I did understand.
Hope we connect.

But the point was, we can look for example word hate in the Bible and then see what it meant in practice.

I agree.
We can interpret any word in any way that we like.

You seem to interpret the word "hate" to mean something good.
I do not.

When Jesus speaks, that disciples should hate their own life,

That makes no sense.
Why do followers of JESUS have to HATE their life, anything or anyone?

You don't think it's possible to follow Jesus and LOVE your life, your family, your friends, and even in some ways, your enemies, too?

Why do followers of Jesus have to HATE anyone or anything?
I thought his message is supposed to be about love.

The Bible is very confusing like that.
Some people pretend that there are no contradictions in it.

So, the hate doesnt mean that people then do evil things.

I agree.
Feelings of hate don't imply evil actions.

Hate is an emotion. I think it's an extremely NEGATIVE one.

Why do followers of Jesus have to HATE?
Shouldn't they love, instead?

What do you think it means in practice if person hates his own life?

That the person is depressed, and needs to change his life? I really don't know because I don't pretend to read minds.

IF someone came up to me and said that they hated their life, I'd be concerned about his mental state. I'd suggest some therapy.

[1213]

[Replying to Blastcat]

You seem to interpret the word "hate" to mean something good.

I dont think I am interpreting, I just tell directly what the Bible tells. It tells how the hate for ones own life was shown and I dont think that as really bad.

Why do followers of JESUS have to HATE their life, anything or anyone? You don't think it's possible to follow Jesus and LOVE your life, your family, your friends, and even in some ways, your enemies, too?

It would be good to understand first that in Biblical point of view goal is righteousness and truth and to preach the Gospel so that as many as possible could know it. In Biblical point of view this life and all earthly things are temporary and not even meant to last forever. The focus is on higher matters and important is what serves that goal, not the things that dont last. It is not useful to save biological life, if the soul is destroyed, in Biblical point of view, because biological life will end eventually anyway.

Earthly matters like property and relatives can draw person away from that path of truth. They draw the focus on things that are not important and they can lead person away from truth and righteousness. And it is not good if person rather serves for example his house than God. If values are defined by fear of losing for example house rather than by God, it can lead to evil actions. And it is not good if persons love depends on is the person his relative, because people should be loved even if they are not family members, in Biblical point of view. All people are as valuable and I think that was one of the points Jesus had. If you love your family more than others just because they happen to be your biological relatives, I think it is not very good.

If person has a lot of property, and it is the most important thing for the person, it leads to wrong direction and in Biblical point of view, it can in worst case lead to permanent death. That is why property can be dangerous. If person has great life full of all that he can hope, it draws him away from God and true life. Same way, biological family also can draw person away from God, it draws the focus to matters that dont last and are not the most important thing. Earthly things can be destructive in spiritual point of view. That is the reason why I think they can be hated. And that is why, if person loves himself, he hates (dislikes) things that destroy him. Also, in Biblical point of view, destruction of body is not dangerous, because life doesnt end to that. Therefore, there is no reason to fear death of a body.

I think it is possible to follow the teachings of Jesus and love people. But in that case the actions are based on different matters. For example, love is not based on that is the person useful for you, or is he your relative. And Biblical love is not just an emotion, it is rather an attitude that makes person do right things to others, it can be seen in caring actions that are not based on ownership.

Why do followers of Jesus have to HATE?
Shouldn't they love, instead?

The highest commandment is to love, for disciples of Jesus. But even if you love, you can dislike some things, especially if they are destructive.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 76 by 1213]

You seem to interpret the word "hate" to mean something good.

I dont think I am interpreting, I just tell directly what the Bible tells. It tells how the hate for ones own life was shown and I dont think that as really bad.

That, my friend is an interpretation.
It seems that you don't know what the word means.

[William]

Q: Is there a love that can hate hate?

Something was put into place - injected into the affairs of the world in which caused a ripple effect ongoing now for 2000ish years.

The importance of the data injection into the human drama aka 'reality' required certain disciplines which involved the motion of overriding ones love for their wife and children in order to participate in something which was deemed more important than the love of family because it was considered to be and act of truly loving ones family because one wanted a better world for them to live in which Jesus promised his followers would happen IF they made this sacrifice and put their money where their mouths were.

Indeed, this decision of action placed many swords and shields between family and disciple as some families had members who were fine-with-the-way-things-were-thank-you-very-much and considered Jesus a crazy loon threatening that way and its subsequent outlook of life.

[strike]Fools [/strike] We don't always know when we are being played but what is known is that systems of disparity have been playing us all for the 'fools' that we are, but let's face it - they have done so because we were but innocent children unaware of the nature of the beast which owns our forms. EZPZ - it is like taking candies of the babies.

This is the beast Jesus was focused upon sorting out, and he required that we find the same focus so that in seeing, we would act accordingly.

Now, is 2000ish years later and the rules have developed in that time. This short [6:07] YouTube Video is a graphic example of reality today. [Video Link]

It is not a religious video but it shows clearly what Jesus was trying to help humans acknowledge, understand to avoid through creating something better and why the data was injected into this reality.

The idea is to give Humans a chance to do for themselves, and build a Kingdom together which they could truly be proud of for all the right reasons.

A [strike]Kingdom[/strike] system of parity where all were equal, and it was unlawful to treat others as less than equal as this lead to the dark-side.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 78 by William]



[center]Is there a goat that can be a tiger?[/center]

Q: Is there a love that can hate hate?

No.
Love is not hate.


Love is love.
Hate is hate.

[MuffMaYne]

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

You quoted three verses, and even if you were to take them all as being extremely literal you could still come out with them not contradicting each other.

The First being : If you don't hate your family and even yourself you cannot come to the Father(God)

The other two being : Treat others the way you want to be treated.

So even with an ultra literal reading of the 3 verses you'd just end up with "Hate everyone and yourself, and treat expect to be treated the same."

But clearly if you read those verses within the context they are written, its just saying you need to esteem God so greatly that your love for self or even other people is as though it were hate. You have to be so head over hills for God that you're willing to let go of yourself, and or, your family/friends for Him(God). God has to be first in every and all things.