Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

[dio9]

Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

Point being, Jesus did not fulfill the Jewish expectation for the Messiah. The Christian Christ fulfilled a different role as the sacrificial savior. How do we bridge our Christian Christ with Jewish Jesus?

Do you think Jesus thought of himself as the Divine second person of the holy trinity?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by dio9]

The first century Jews had expectations based on their political ambitions, worldly aspirations and inaccurate interpretation of scripture. Jesus fulfilled the scriptural requirements of the Messiah and gave ample proof of his Messiahship. The error was neither in scripture nor in his credentials.

There can be no bridge between false and true nor should one be necessary.

[Elijah John]

Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

Point being, Jesus did not fulfill the Jewish expectation for the Messiah. The Christian Christ fulfilled a different role as the sacrificial savior. How do we bridge our Christian Christ with Jewish Jesus?

Do you think Jesus thought of himself as the Divine second person of the holy trinity?

One of the few things we can know about Jesus historically is that he was a Jew. A Shema preaching Jew (it's in Mark). The concept of the Trinity would have been unheard of to him or any other Jew.

God's uncompromised unity is drilled over and over again. God is one. With phylacteries on their heads, and mezuzah's on their doorposts.

The message is clear, literally... "get it through your heads O Israel, God is ONE"!

The idea that God is one in three, or three in one is completely foreign to Judaism, and Jesus being a Jew, the notion of a Trinity would have been an alien idea to him as well.

In the synpotics we have Yahshua glorifying the Father alone. John's Jesus, and Paul's Jesus by contrast, seem to have him grasping for, or claiming the Father's glory for himself.

A Divine Jesus may have been who Yahshua was to John and Paul, ie the "Christ of Faith".

But historically, it is far more likely that Yahshua was a completely human preacher and Rabbi, who perhaps thought of himself as the Messiah or an apocalyptic prophet, in the manner of John the Baptist and other first century prophets/messiahs.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 3 by Elijah John]

One of the few things we can know about Jesus historically is that he was a Jew.

You keep making this claim: It is not true:

If he was a demi-god, then his genes were most certainly Gods more importantly than Mary's.
If he were the son out of we-lock or unlawfully, then he is not Jewish for three generations. in accordance with Jewish law.
Since he practiced Christianity, not Judaism, he was not a Jew religiously.

No matter what combination you choose, Jesus comes out, non-Jewish.

I see no way out.

[ttruscott]

Do you think Jesus thought of himself as the Divine second person of the holy trinity?

Some contend that John 8:58 "Very truly I tell you," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" implies He did.

[ttruscott]

God's uncompromised unity is drilled over and over again. God is one. With phylacteries on their heads, and mezuzah's on their doorposts.

Some contend that GOD is ONE as an 'Echad unity, as the flesh of two lovers become one flesh, a unity that does not dissolve the twoness, Genesis 2:24 That is why a man leaves his father and mother and is united to his wife, and they become one flesh. ’e·ḥ��: �ֶחָֽד׃ - one in unity. That is, Jewish practices only prove their belief, not necessarily the truth of their belief.

[bluethread]

[Replying to post 3 by Elijah John]

One of the few things we can know about Jesus historically is that he was a Jew.

You keep making this claim: It is not true:

If he was a demi-god, then his genes were most certainly Gods more importantly than Mary's.

This presumes a genetic combination. This has never been argued, as far as I know and I is not mentioned in the Scriptures. The genetics of how Yeshua was conceived is unknown.

If he were the son out of we-lock or unlawfully, then he is not Jewish for three generations. in accordance with Jewish law.

This would have o be established in a court of law. Since, Yoseph accepted Yeshua as his son, he is accorded full citizenship in accordance with HaTorah.

Since he practiced Christianity, not Judaism, he was not a Jew religiously.

Christianity did not exist in Yeshua's time. What Yeshua practiced was a form of Judaism.

[Willum]

[Replying to bluethread]

Playing one logic against another may help you in a court of law - however, in the eyes of God, who would see the truth, all of these would not fly.

If, as some interpret scripture, he is the real Son of God, he is not genetically Jewish, or if so, he is certainly trumped by divine genes. So being Jewish by genealogy is irrelevant. He is certainly not a male relation of David et&al..

If he was REALLY a bastard, as is claimed by some other interpretations, it is God that would not recognize him as being Jewish for three generations. A court of law is irrelevant. Especially if his father was really Tiberius Panthera as mundane claims make him.

No, Jesus STARTED a new religion, Christianity. He did many things that were not compatible with Pharisee-Jews and definitely incompatible with Sadducee-Jews. He was definitley not a practicing Jew.

So in any possible way that matters, IN SCRIPTURE, Jesus was not Jewish.

[bluethread]

[Replying to bluethread]

Playing one logic against another may help you in a court of law - however, in the eyes of God, who would see the truth, all of these would not fly.

If, as some interpret scripture, he is the real Son of God, he is not genetically Jewish, or if so, he is certainly trumped by divine genes. So being Jewish by genealogy is irrelevant. He is certainly not a male relation of David et&al..

Sorry, his mother was genetically of the tribe of Yehudah and specifically of David. Your "divine genes" argument is not supported by the Scriptures.

If he was REALLY a bastard, as is claimed by some other interpretations, it is God that would not recognize him as being Jewish for three generations. A court of law is irrelevant. Especially if his father was really Tiberius Panthera as mundane claims make him.

Sorry, again due process is relevant. It is part of Torah. Also, I do not accept the Tiberius Panthera claim. It has only been trotted out when the argument that Joseph jumped the gun didn't have the desired results.

No, Jesus STARTED a new religion, Christianity. He did many things that were not compatible with Pharisee-Jews and definitely incompatible with Sadducee-Jews. He was definitley not a practicing Jew.

He did have his own Shul that did not totally agree with those of the Sadducees and Pharisees. However, nothing He taught violated Torah.

[Willum]

[Replying to bluethread]

You arguments boil down to: Reality doesn't matter.
Can you quote the verse where it says that his mother can grant him "Jewishness?" Which verse? I think it's a modern invention. Can you show any case where human genealogy overcomes divine genealogy? Or any reason to believe it?

Nebuchadnezzar, a real human being, bragged he ended the line of David.

If Jesus was indeed a bastard, how was due process relevant? If God can see what no one else, but those who can read the Bible? How is what men perceive to to a lie, holy?

If you desire to ignore Jesus possible mortal father, unlawful, and there is no proposed Jewish or Biblical option,, you really need to propose a better alternative:

There are two options: History's, which as every other person ever born, claims, that Jesus' father was a mortal Roman soldier.
or the son of God.

You have to have it one way or the other, or provide us some reason to believe otherwise. The most likely alternative, is Jesus father (if he even existed), was mortal, and if mortal, there is only one mortal who has been named as the father, Panthera.

Nothing he taught violated the Torah? venerating the divine pagan monarchy of Rome violates the Torah. And then you have that Sadducee were pagan themselves. Then there is release from proscriptions such as eating pork, and so on. In fact the whole Jesus paradigm, is against the Torah, or at least not a part of it.

You will have to explain how God is fooled by what can be proven in a court of law, especially since, everyone in modern Christiandom, knows the real story.

So, I am afraid, in no way can Jesus be considered Jewish, unless you can show he was conceived lawfully.

I am afraid you are up against the problem that the people who wrote the Bible, didn't understand Jewish culture completely.

This is why Christianity makes sense to gentiles,but not to Jews.