What is the logic behind Jesus' crucifixion?

[Justin108]

I have been asking this question over and over on this forum and no theist has ever been able to address it. They try, but once I give my rebuttal to their attempts, they eventually stop replying. Hopefully I can get an answer this time.

Note: This topic is specifically for Christians who believe Jesus' death was necessary for us to have our sins forgiven.

This is arguably the core of the Christian faith that Jesus died for our sins and made it possible for us to live for eternity in heaven... but why did Jesus have to die in order for us to have our sins forgiven?

God makes the rules. There is no "God HAD to sacrifice Jesus" because God can do anything.

Christians often say that God cannot let sin go unpunished as it would be unjust; but is it any more just to sacrifice an innocent man on behalf of a guilty man? If a man rapes a little girl and the man's brother offers to go to prison on his behalf, would this be justice?

If god is satisfied by punishment without guilt (Jesus), why is he not satisfied with guilt without punishment?

[Justin108]

The point was to communicate to mankind the price that God and Jesus were willing to pay

Pay to whom?

To God.

So God sacrificed something to himself? God paid a price to himself? How.. but.. what?

Why was this necessary to save mankind?

Because mankind found itself is a situation were many of its members were suffering (cancers, famines, loss of children, mental or physical disabilities, war, bad government ... etc) ... and all faced the same eventuality of old age and eventual death.

Many would welcome the chance to escape this tragic cycle.

You're not really answering my question. I am not asking "what danger is humanity in?", I'm asking why was Jesus' death in particular necessary to fix this? In what way does sacrificing Jesus accomplish anything?

[JehovahsWitness]

Why was this necessary to save mankind?

If you saw a man drowning, why would it be necessary to throw him a rope? Because the man is in desperate need and the rope is the means by which he will not drown.

Mankind found itself like that drowning man, alienated from God, passing on the imperfection we inherited from our first parentsl who rebelled in Eden. Like the man with the rope, helping humanity didn't help God (or Jesus) but it was necessary because they felt sorry for us. We couldn't save ourselves, Jehovah (God) provided the means by which we might have a future.





What is that future?

Everlasting life, right here on this our planet earth. But earth, in the condition like the garden of Eden...




Further reading: Why was a ransom necessary?
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2017286#h=23

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 110 by JehovahsWitness]

Because mankind found itself is a situation were many of its members were suffering (cancers, famines, loss of children, mental or physical disabilities, war, bad government ... etc) ... and all faced the same eventuality of old age and eventual death.

Okay, so going by this line of reasoning, I'd expect there to be no suffering like what you list in the brackets (cancers etc), even if at minimum only for those who accept the payment (believe it).
Thing is...if I go outside, I can see that cancers, famines, loss of children, disablities etc still occur, even to the most devout of people.
If someone else paid for my mortgage, what I would expect to happen is for the bank to stop taking a huge chunk out of my account every month.
If someone else somehow magically paid for all mortgages forever, I would expect for banks the world over to not take chunks out of people's accounts to pay for the loans.

The problem you have JW is that what you claim happened(or happens) is contradicted by the simplest of observations.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 112 by JehovahsWitness]

If you saw a man drowning, why would it be necessary to throw him a rope?

Your analogy does not consider at all the stories of the Old Testament, which state flat out that God created the world, created the conditions that led to Man 'drowning' i.e. creating a forbidden tree smack dab in the middle of a garden and walking away, and then punishing Man when the fruit was eaten.

Why would it be necessary for God to 'throw a rope' a.k.a. have Jesus pay for the sin some number of thousands of years later? UPDATE - Why not have Jesus appear right then and there in the Garden and pay for the sin then? Why wait a few thousand years?

Because the man is in desperate need and the rope is the means by which he will not drown.

For this analogy to work, we have to consider that if this were a real world situation, i.e. a man is drowning for real, then a rope is the best method to try and save him (or swimming out to get him). As in, the best method for not powerful humans to use.
In your analogy, Jesus is the rope. Why? In the Bible, God can teleport. He can just snap his fingers and have the 'drowning man' appear safe and sound on dry land.

Also, consider the analogy in the other direction. A man really is drowning and his mate says he's going to throw him a rope. Only, the friend is seen butchering a third man. How does this help the man in the water?

Mankind found itself like that drowning man, alienated from God, passing on the imperfection we inherited from our first parentsl who rebelled in Eden.

Consider that God would have had the knowledge and power required to prevent this imperfection from being passed on at all in the first place.
It's no good to praise someone for throwing a drowning man a rope if we ignore that he was standing right behind the man as he fell into the water and did nothing at all to prevent it. Or as the Genesis story indicates, was actively involved in it.

What is that future?

Everlasting life, right here on this our planet earth. But earth, in the condition like the garden of Eden...

Does this mean we will be like Adam and Eve, not having knowledge of Good and Evil?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 113 by rikuoamero]

QUESTION: When will the full benefits of the ransom go into action?

While honest hearted people can reap many benefits now from the ransom - including the privilege of having a relationship with their Creator, and being gathered into his eartly organization to enjoy the rich spiritual benefit of understanding bible truths - the full benefits from the ransom will only be applied after what the bible calls Armageddon when God's kingdom reigns.

What is God's Kingdom and what will it do for mankind? God's kingdom is a government. The head of the government isn't Donald Trump or the Queen of England but Jesus Christ himself. The center of that government isn't in Washington, London or Paris but in heaven. The size of government is limited to 144, 000 government members and the territory will not be a part of Europe, North America or even the continent of Africa but the entire planet.

Having destroyed the wicked and cleared the earth of all human government, God's government will put into place its own "health" program (ridding mankind of all sickness), housing program (homes and land for everyone), and educations program (learning of God's standard).

The benefits of the ransom will at long last be applied to all obedient mankind!

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I have posted the answer to this question before, perhaps you missed it, so I will repost the link
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 788#835788

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 115 by JehovahsWitness]

the full benefits from the ransom will only be applied after what the bible calls Armageddon when God's kingdom reigns.

Convenient. If Jesus was being claimed to have paid for all mortgages, but someone like yourself stated that the benefit of the payment would take place at some vague point in the future, would you accept the initial claim (your mortgage has been paid for?)
Would you not expect for you to not have to continue paying for your mortgage every month (or indeed, to not have begun to pay for it at all, since this payment after all supposedly took place in the distant past)

What is God's Kingdom and what will it do for mankind? God's kingdom is a government. The head of the government isn't Donald Trump or the Queen of England but Jesus Christ himself. The center of that government isn't in Washington, London or Paris but in heaven. The size of government is limited to 144, 000 government members and the territory will not be a part of Europe, North America or even the continent of Africa but the entire planet.

This has nothing to do with anything I asked. I did not comment at all on the supposed future political situation/governmental structure on Earth. I commented on you referring to physical illnesses and disabilities as somehow being cured thanks to Jesus's ransom, and yet they still occur even among the faithful.

God's government will put into place its own "health" program

You have health there in quotation marks, indicating that it is a metaphor for something else. Is this you indicating that what you talked about before, regarding cancers and disabilities was NOT about literal cancers, disabilities and other illnesses, but something else entirely, some other meaning that I am unaware of?

(ridding mankind of all sickness),

So a quote unquote health program (with the quotation marks indicating that the word health isn't literal)...rids mankind of sickness?

When will the full benefits of the ransom go into action?

Are there ANY benefits from the ransom that can be observed TODAY? Any at all?

Question for JW
Did you just copy and paste this entire post (number 115) from somewhere else? It looks to me like you did. When I read this post, it doesn't read like you're actually responding to anything I said, or that you took the time to digest what I said and are responding in your own words.
I'm getting suspicious that you read a few key words or phrases from my post (such as my questioning of the effect of Jesus's ransom), went to some site somewhere, and copied and pasted this boiler plate response.

Can you look me (metaphorically) in the eye and state that this is NOT what happened? Consider that neither I or any of the site's resident atheist/agnostics to my knowledge just copy and paste from other sites in lieu of responding in our own words.

[theophile]

[Replying to OnceConvinced]

Really who is it that needs anything proven to him? You say the Satans. But why would it matter what they think? God is the only one whos going to be unleashing his wrath on the batch of apples so it's only him that needs to be appeased. God and God only. Nobody else needs anything proven to them. Not Satan. Not anyone.

Great question...

Let's set the context here.

--God has started the formation and filling of a formless and empty world (Gen 1).
--God has appointed human beings to be like God and continue the task (Gen 1).
--The question of our worth is the question of our worthiness to do precisely that: to lead the world in God's place.

Critical to this, I think, is that our efforts are for the good of all life in the world, not just ourselves, or our own special interests. We can't lead if our hearts aren't truly open to all.

Thus, any time we act selfishly, or any time we take from others for our own welfare (whether from plant, animal, or humankind), we can imagine an outcry from the earth. A cry against our worthiness for this role from others in the world (those we are called to lead).

We can further imagine, as that outcry grows, that it may materialize into something truly adversarial and accusing of us, which is precisely what the satan is (see the Hebrew). It is a spirit, which is to say the combined voice of all doubters of humanity in this world, that rises up to God and speaks against us, that argues against our motives, etc... (which is precisely what we see in the book of Job.)

(Note: We can further imagine this spirit, if left unattended, becoming not just against us, but against God, who insists on us and continues to back us up despite our continued failure to properly lead.. i.e., we can imagine these satans becoming Satan, or one who is in outright rebellion against God, not just us...)

So to answer part of your question, who are the satans? It is these ones. The ones who, because of how terrible a job we have done leading the world, have come to doubt our worthiness for the job God that has given us. Who have cried out against us. And who now require proof - a good apple - to restore their faith in our potential to do the job.

Otherwise, this whole creative enterprise that we were called to take over and lead is going to go nowhere. It will descend further and further into hell if all these ones are not on board. Thus, to answer the other part of your question, it deeply matters what they think. God's ultimate design - and the welfare of all things - depends upon it.

God being God, does not require anyone to die for him to know whether someone is a good apple. No test is needed when God already knows.

Again the context. We are the ones who need to take over and lead. We are the ones who need to prove to all those we are leading that we are worthy of the job. If God has faith in us, so what? God is not the one who we need to lead. Who we need to work with as we lead. Who we need to have on our side to form and fill the earth in the image of God.

God will judge us on what we do. On how well we have continued this work. On how much of an impediment we are to it... On the outcry against us... (i.e., whether or not those we are leading are truly on our side...)

So even if God knows we are good, it doesn't matter. What matters is all the others in the world knowing it. And that, because God vouching is clearly not enough, takes proof.

[Justin108]

Why was this necessary to save mankind?

If you saw a man drowning, why would it be necessary to throw him a rope? Because the man is in desperate need and the rope is the means by which he will not drown.

I'm finding it really hard to get what I'm asking through to you... I am NOT asking "why was it necessary for God to save mankind", I am asking why is THIS (Jesus' sacrifice) necessary to save mankind?

Let's use your rope example... I would throw a rope to the man because I understood that the rope had all the necessary requirements to save the man. The rope was instrumental to save the man. The rope was durable enough to endure the man's weight, it was long enough to reach the man and it gave me the ability to pull the man to safety.

So to summarize, the rope was useful because:
- It was long
- It was durable
- It allowed me to pull the man to safety

Now the rope in this analogy is Jesus' sacrifice. Can you please list in a similar way how Jesus' sacrifice was useful in saving us? What useful qualities were inherent in Jesus' sacrifice to allow us to be saved?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 117 by theophile]

Again the context. We are the ones who need to take over and lead. We are the ones who need to prove to all those we are leading that we are worthy of the job.

I find this part of your response to be malformed, or not clear at the very least. You seem to be talking about TWO groups of people, but refer to both using the same word 'we'.
You seem to indicate that 'we' (as in us humans) are going to lead some other group (...humans?) an that 'we' have to prove ourselves to that other group (...humans?)

[JehovahsWitness]

So God sacrificed something to himself? God paid a price to himself?

QUESTION Who was the ransom paid to and why?

God created a perfect couple, Adam and Eve. His purpose was for them and their children to live forever on a garden like planet (earth) never getting sick or growing old. Sadly Adam rebelled and sinned, he lost one perfect human life: his own. Having lost perfection Adam only had imperfection (and that which results from human imperfection... death) to pass on to their children. Like children of a slave, humans couldn't buy their own freedom from the sad eventuality of inherited imperfection and death because the price would have to be that which was lost, one perfect human life.

Paying a ransom, freeing the hostages

A ransom is a price paid to free someone. Humanity found itself "hostages" of sin and death, not because of God but because of Adam's rebellion. Without compromising his own righteous standards and "stealing" them back, God could not legitimately save mankind without a ransom.

Why would the ransom be paid to God? Because God is the hightest authority in existence; Jehovah God is both lawgiver, judge and executioner. If mercy is to be extended, it is He who will do this, and if He exacts a basis upon which that mercy will be given, it must be given to him.

To illustrate: A man commits a crime and is put in prison by a judge. The sentence is 10 years but after 5 he appeals to be released. Who does the criminal appeal to? If the judge demands the man does 6 months community service and if the demands are met he will release the man, when the six months are completed, who does the man present the documentation verifying the conditions have been me to?

The judge put the man in prison because the law had been broken. Validation of having met the conditions of release were presented to that same judge, because he set the conditions of release.

Who provided the ransom?

Returning to our illustration, what is extraordinary is that the Judge, not the convicted criminal was willing to provide the basis upon which mercy would be extended*. It as if he himself said "Ok, I see you are really sorry, but I cannot simply wave 5 years away without a legal basis because a crime has been committed... I'll tell you what I'll do, I'll ask my son if he is willing to do the community service for you" The man broke the law, the man was justly convicted but the JUDGE provides the basis for release and his SON does the time.

*Mankind inherited imperfection (ie sin) and thus we are all born in the "prison" of the evitable eventuality of death.

The Watchtower February 2017 p. 7 par 17 puts it this way:

" Jehovah provided the ransom at great cost to himself. (1 Pet. 1:19) He values humanity so highly that he was willing to let his only-begotten Son die in our behalf. (1 John 4:9, 10) In a sense, Jesus takes the place of our original human father, Adam. (1 Cor. 15:45) By doing so, Jesus restores more than life; he gives us the opportunity to return eventually to God’s family. Yes, on the basis of Jesus’ sacrifice, Jehovah can accept humans back into his family without compromising his righteousness. "

Thus arose the situation of the ransom being from God TO God.

Learn more:
http://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2017286#h=1


JW



Was there no other way?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 933#848933

To learn more please go to other posts related to

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