Eternal Hell

[amortalman]

I have two questions primarily for Christians.

1) If your brand of religion teaches that unbelievers will be judged by God and cast into Hell and the Lake of Fire for eternity to suffer there with no possibility of death or escape, is this action by God a just punishment, and why?

2) The second question is purely hypothetical and reaches way out there. If your God gave you permission to do as you please concerning eternal Hell, to keep it, or to abolish it in favor of, say, annihilation, would you keep it or do away with it?

NOTE: In regards to question number one I'm thinking about the story told by Jesus of the rich man and Lazarus found in Luke chapter 16. The Lake of Fire is mentioned in Revelation 20:10-15 and 21:8.

To me, an eternity of suffering in Hell defies logic and any sense of compassion what-so-ever. During my years as a Christian in an evangelical church, I've heard many preachers preface a sermon on Hell by saying they don't like to talk about it and don't like the concept of it but they must preach it because that's what the Bible teaches. I was once a part of a Biblical teaching program for children 2nd through 6th grade. I can only imagine the nightmares some of them had after being told that without Jesus they would go to Hell forever. Someone might argue that it's better that than to go to Hell. But does the fear tactic really work, and if it does, is that the best way, to scare the hell out of them?

In my understanding of the Bible, and what is being taught to millions of people in evangelical churches around the world, there are two kinds of people who will be cast into Hell. Those who have never heard the gospel and those how have rejected the gospel after having heard it. According to that teaching, there are countless millions of poor souls being tormented in Hell right now because they never had an opportunity to hear about Christ. Furthermore, there are hundreds if not thousands that are dying every day and going to Hell for lack of an opportunity to decide. Is that just?

Finally, I'm hopeful that the second question will cut to the Christians heart concerning the doctrine of Hell and reveal the insanity of it. To me, someone who would keep Hell if given the chance to abolish it is a Sadist of the worse kind. But then again, if a Christian says that he would do away with Hell is he demonstrating that he is more merciful than God?

What say you?

[ttruscott]

[Replying to American Deist]

The truth is many thousands of Christians do actually read, and study extensively, the Bible and still come to the conclusion that a literal hell of torment forever exists and awaits the unrepentant wicked and all unbelievers.
When I was a "faithful" active Christian one nagging issue never went away and that was how could God condemn anyone to that kind of horrible nightmare. But I lived with it like so many others. It wasn't until I could no longer ignore the issue and
many more that piled up that I broke free.

And yet, it was while holding my decisions about these things in abeyance due to the Lord's own words on the matter conflicting with my own take on the topic that I was led to the idea that there was indeed a logical and absolute necessity for an eternal hell as outlined in Post #271, IF certain situations held true. Once I realized that, it was easy to accept that eternal hell might be a loving option to protect HIS holy church.

In Jesus' words, the eternal of Matthew 25:46 "Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life." is the same eternal for punishment and for life and I expect my eternal life to be everlasting, not just for an aeon or two.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 281 by amortalman]

You are amazing!

Your post is surely the longest one I have ever seen.

It must have taken you several hours, at least. If it was me, I would have needed a full day.

I take my hat off to you, sir.

[shnarkle]

You do realize that you're passing judgement on a fictional character, don't you? You can't pass judgment on fictional characters; they're not real in the first place.

Whoever said this has forgotten they are in the Theology forum where Biblical things are taken to be true not fiction.

I haven't forgotten anything of the sort. He is the one who is working under the impression that the biblical God is fictional. I'm just pointing out the inconsistency in his thinking. He pointed out that he was once a believer, but left and now believes that the bible is a work of fiction. He's asking a question of believers, but also pointing out that he no longer takes this as factual or real. I'm not going to pretend that he is still a believer when he isn't. I can still have a discussion with someone who no longer believes the bible is true. He has also brought up the fact that believers have vastly divergent interpretations for passages of scripture. So even though people may believe it is true, they can still disagree on what it is that is true, or which interpretation is true. Just because someone doesn't believe the bible is true, isn't really all that different from those who believe, especially in the case of this OP. He's presenting an interpretation that many Christians don't believe in the first place.

Your name is on this only because I got this from a post of yours but the quoting was so messed up (seems like two people said it) I could not tell who said it so I said: whoever said this...

The only reason I responded is because I'm the one who said it. I probably should've clarified that one can pass judgement on a fictional character, but he seems to be passing judgement on God as if he's real when he's already determined the text to be fictional as well as blaming real world events on a fictional character which makes no sense to begin with.

Furthermore, your own understanding is flawed because there are stories in the text that are not literal, but fictional, e.g. parables, allegory etc. There are also stories such as the story of Adam and Eve and their interaction with the "nachash". Some people see this as a story about a talking snake. If that is the case then this is a fictional story because the Heb. "nachash" is a "burning one", or "shining one", and is equivalent to a "seraph" in the book of numbers. The term refers to a serpent or snake because of the burn of its bite.

[ttruscott]

When I was a "faithful" active Christian one nagging issue never went away and that was how could God condemn anyone to that kind of horrible nightmare. But I lived with it like so many others. It wasn't until I could no longer ignore the issue and many more that piled up that I broke free.

It might amuse you to know that PCE theology contends that once all our decisions were made about accepting YHWH's claims to be our GOD or rejecting those claims as the lies of a false god were finalized, YHWH called all HIS elect, those who accepted HIM, to come out from among those condemned already so as to not "touch the unclean thing", that is, to not fall into idolization of a demon over their GOD, so the reprobate could be judged and banished.

Hearing this, some of HIS elect, out of their love for their friends who had chosen to reject HIM, rebelled against the judgment as too judgemental for a loving GOD, to quickly decided as it gave them too little time to repent and to harsh for mere disbelief. Thus they too became as evil as any demon but were able to be brought to repentance and redemption because they were under HIS promises of election and salvation. Then GOD asked all HIS clean elect to come out for among the unclean sinful elect until they could be redeemed but some of their friends did not trust GOD to treat the sinful elect with justice, not hate, to they rejected HIS call, becoming sinful themsleves for their elect friends who were in sin. And so it went until everyone chose exactly where they stood between GOD's call and idolatry of another.*

Thus the judgment had to be postponed so as to not condemn the sinful elect with the eternally evil reprobate. It was decided that the sinful elect live with the eternally evil ones so they could learn that the wicked tares did not make good family, friends or neighbours at all as they would never repent. Once the last sinful elect accepted the necessity of the banishment to the outer darkness of the tares and became fully, perfectly, in accord with all GOD's plans for HIS creation, then the judgement day will start. As Peter wrote, living holy lives speeds up the coming of that terrible day: 2 Peter 3:11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and speeding / hastening the coming of the day of GOD.

* It may have been obvious but please note: we see these three distinctions in the garden: the eternally evil serpent condemned already, Eve, friends with the serpent who she followed to challenge death and Adam, who only ate because Eve, his friend, ate.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 283 by Monta]

Well, if you were the leader of the world, then I would certainly support you.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 281 by amortalman]

I don't believe in a Hell. I view God as loving, loving everyone; and when you love persons, you do not coerce them with threats of terrible punishments and torment. Hence, I am in agreement with you on the question of Hell. I believe in a universal salvation. There has already been more than enough pain and suffering in this world. We don't need that sort of thing in the hereafter.

Yes, there's been enough pain and suffering and I, as the leader of this world,

ask that all prisoners shall be set free, that we do away with criminal prosecutions.

I also ask that all citizens support me.

An interesting and apt post.

We are promised that eternity will have no pain or suffering or death, for that old order of things will have passed away.

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 213 by shnarkle]

Who would choose to be miserable, yet people do this all the time.

You should ask them if they are choosing or not.

It's rarely necessary as they are more than willing to provide this information. I hear people quite routinely say things like: "They; he, she, that, etc. makes me so mad, sad, angry, etc." They are literally telling me that these people have control over their emotions, and how they feel. They will say, "I can't help it", or "There's nothing I can do about it", or "Why does this happen to me"? They are completely lost to the whim of the fates. They have no control whatsoever. Then there are those who want to know what they're fate is. They consult mediums. They read books on the subject to see what is in store for them. Here again, they aren't really taking charge for their own life, but just simply wanting to find out what their fate is going to be. Some might try to influence their fate, but here again, they're attempting to influence something that is outside of them rather than their own feelings, emotions, actions directly. They seriously believe that others have more control over them than they do themselves.

I will trust what they have to say about themselves, and not someone else.

This doesn't seem to be the case at all. I've lived all over the world, and I run into this all the time so I seriously doubt that this could be something you've never heard people say. The only reason I can think of would be that of someone who just doesn't pay attention to what people are saying.

You aren't the judge of that, my friend.
THEY ARE.

True, that's why I pointed out these are their words. These are their judgements. I don't keep track of these things, but it is not uncommon for me to hear people say things like, "I just want to die", or "That just kills me", or "My life is hopeless". They've given up on life, and have chosen to be miserable by their own admission. When I try to encourage them to persevere, they say, "What's the point"?, or "You're wasting your time".

I know one person in particular that really enjoys his misery. He complains constantly, and genuinely enjoys complaining. He's very good at it. He's been doing it his whole life.

Another guy I used to know went looking for his wife who had disappeared. Everyone except him knew where she was. She was hiding out with some other guy. When I asked him if he'd really like to find his wife, I told him that we knew where she was. His response changed quite abruptly from wanting to know to complete disinterest. He didn't want to know where she was at all. He just wanted her to come back. The reason she left was because he was verbally abusive. He enjoyed putting her down, and making her miserable. He would do this in front of people without a thought. It was creepy to watch him tell his own wife what an idiot she was in front of numerous people. Deep down he knew she was shacked up with someone else, but he didn't care. This was just as creepy, but then that's what he wanted, so who am I to judge? I'm just pointing out some very real observations that pretty much anyone who has a television set and cable or satellite service can watch on any of those sleezy talk shows where people confess to their spouse that they've been cheating on them for years, they're pregnant with someone else's child etc. These people are quite obviously miserable.

People don't consider that we all have choices.

IF someone doesn't CONSIDER they have a choice, then they don't know that they have one.

Quite true! Glad you were able to pick up on that fact. However, even when some people do consider their options, they rarely choose to be happy. They just don't seem to see it as a viable option. They see their lives as some sad melodrama that they're destined to play out to its ultimate pathetic conclusion.

If only someone could reach out to everyone to tell them they are wrong.
They are so, so wrong.

It wouldn't make any difference. It really isn't necessary to put it in terms of right or wrong anyways. One need only point out that some people have choices, or choose to make different choices, but even this doesn't usually work because they don't see themselves as those types of people. They can't seem to identify with anyone unless they're from a Greek tragedy.

If only there was SOMEONE out there who was so, so right to set them straight?

An omniscient, omnipotent god comes to mind as the most likely candidate. Ironically, those who are able to make it from this sad state of indecision routinely point out that is was God Who did release them from their bondage to the fates.

I just happened to see a testimonial online the other day which was quite extraordinary, and a prime example of someone who believes their happy until they realize that they're actually miserable. A young man was sitting in his compact station wagon making a video for his blog/vlog. I hadn't seen any of his other videos, but evidently he'd been quite popular and had a thriving new age website. He was making so much money from these videos and new age websites that he had bought a mansion, a new fire engine red sports car, and had a piping hot girl friend. He basically had it all, but one evening he went out onto his bedroom balcony and fell to his knees weeping because he felt so empty inside. He suddenly realized that he could hear God in the rustling leaves, and the crickets chirping. That's not quite how he put it. He put it much better than that; something like he felt like the world was full of God's presence around him etc.. He realized that all of his new age beliefs were false and that his attacks on Jesus were unwarranted. He became a believer and walked away from his fortune. He sold everything, lost his girlfriend, and was living in this compact station wagon, but he was finally happy, and felt fulfilled for the first time in his life. I didn't think I would be able to find it, but here's the link in case you're interested. It's quite a weird story. He's a young guy on this rags to riches and back to rags story. I found it quite entertaining, and a bit moving at times. He's now going to build up his new blog/vlog around Christ. I suspect he may be so popular that many of his followers will just jump ship from his new age blog and subscribe to his new Christian blog/vlog

[Monta]

[Replying to post 283 by Monta]

Well, if you were the leader of the world, then I would certainly support you.

Would you really?
You would not mind thousands of murderers and criminals let loose on the streets, renting a house next to yours, chatting up your kids and giving them drugs and alcohol? Stealing your car and some nice jewllery etc.?

I think that if any leader of any country contemplated something like that, there'd be riot on the streets.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 283 by Monta]

Yes, there's been enough pain and suffering and I, as the leader of this world,

ask that all prisoners shall be set free, that we do away with criminal prosecutions.

I also ask that all citizens support me.

No criminal prosecutions?
What a terrible idea.

That's a sure road to chaos.

"At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice he is the worst. "

- Aristotle

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 232 by shnarkle]



[center]

Defending slavery[/center]

You're still speaking for more people than agree with your position. Just because you're an atheist doesn't mean that you can speak for more than yourself. I know plenty of atheists that would be embarrassed to no end if anyone were to think that they believed that rot.

I'm quite happy that you at least know SOME atheists.

I am speaking for the group of atheists who DO agree with my position.
There are more than one.

They don't characterize other people's ideas as "ROT", either.

I think that at least SOME people have no problem with the morality commanded in the Bible. Apparently, in some circles, even SLAVERY seems to be a good thing.

Especially today with this modern, secular morality.

You must be imagining that slavery has gone UP since the advent of secular morality.

You do know that in those biblical narratives a society, tribe, or culture that was overpowered by their neighbors had practically no chance of survival on their own, right? Do you really think that for them to be forced to work against their will was immoral?

You just defended the practice of slavery.