Does God change his mind?

[OnceConvinced]

A Christian member of our forum recently pointed out a bible contradiction for all to see:

This verse was presented first:
Numbers 23:19 "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."

The Christian then attempted to trump it with a contradictory scripture where God DOES change his mind, thus exposing a blatant bible contradiction:

Jeremiah 18:8 "But if that nation about which I spoke turns from its evil way, I'll change my mind about the disaster that I had planned for it."

Here are further verses that show God changing his mind:

Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Amos 7:3
The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Jeremiah 18:10
if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. (wow this is a verse where God says he will break his promise!!)


So questions for debate:

Does Got change his mind?
If he does change his mind, how do we know he hasn't changed his mind about much of what he expected from us in the New Testament?
If he does change his mind, how can we really know what he wants of us today?

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 228 by Claire Evans]

I presented you with three major passages from the OT where God does change his mind. Now, given that Jesus is God, then yes, Jesus can change his mind, as I mentioned below. If he couldn't, then he couldn't move or utter a single sentence. Plus, becoming incarnate is a major change.

Also, omniscience does not mean God cannot change. God knows the future for what it is: the realm of possibilities, not things set in cement. Hence, whenever something happens, God undergoes a change from knowing X as merely potential to knowing X as actual.

[Monta]

[Replying to hoghead1]

"I presented you with three major passages from the OT where God does change his mind. Now, given that Jesus is God, then yes, Jesus can change his mind, as I mentioned below. If he couldn't, then he couldn't move or utter a single sentence. Plus, becoming incarnate is a major change. "

The Divine Being we call God is infinite and eternal and very Life which is in all living forms; undivided. It is also all wise and is also in all living forms; undivided.
How can you be all wise and then change your mind?

If God were to change his mind I suggest we'd live in total chaos. Perhaps God decides that my apple tree is not good and turnes into a tomato; instead of the sun rising in the east He decides it should rise in the west?

Why would incarnaton be a change to an all wise God. Did His Life Force change - He became more Life Force or less Life Force? Did His wisdom change - became more wise or less wise? Did He become less infinite or more infinite?

Things in the Bible were said for our benefit 3-4000ys ago when man was rather primitive and God had to treach him and coerce him to do 'good'.
God could never describe to us what he is like Himself. Jesus gave us sufficient ideas to get some understanding. In heaven we shall learn a lot more.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 226 by hoghead1]


[center]

If God is perfect, it does not utter a single sentence
[/center]

Think of it this way. If God does not change, then God cannot utter a single sentence.

Correct.
God can't be perfect, then.


____________

Question:

• 
  
  Why does an absolutely perfect god change from absolute perfection to another less absolutely perfect state?
  
  

____________

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 228 by Claire Evans]



[center]
Assuming what one wants to prove[/center]

A deranged being cannot make decisions, cannot guide anyone therefore defying the point of being omniscient.

That's wrong.

Most deranged people make decisions all the time. Some of those decisions might be "deranged", that's all.

That would open up God to deception and that cannot be.

Wrong.

Being deranged doesn't mean "not knowing everything". He might know everything and STILL be quite insane. God might be suffering from a mental illness that does not affect what he knows. He might know perfectly well that he is being deceived, but mangles that up in a sick delusional way.

Just like a psychopath might.

That would mean Satan could deceive God.

Wrong.
Being insane doesn't mean the same as "gullible".

Most psychopaths, for example, are not gullible at all. It would be a grave mistake to think so. In my opinion, from what I know about psychology, the god of the Bible presents as a psychopath with very complex mental issues along with that.

A wizard who is very powerful, but quite insane.
Anyway, that's how I read the Bible stories about God.

You might disagree with that.
That would be fine.

Stories are MEANT to be interpreted.
Isn't the diversity of opinions wonderful?

God's work would just implode if He kept changing His mind by suddenly not being in denial.

Wrong.

People don't have to "implode" just because they change their minds.
We don't have to assume that God should be different.

Wisdom comes from consistency.

Maybe so, Claire, maybe so.

But who says that God is wise? Who ever said that God is consistent?
It's ok to ASSUME these things, but still... assuming isn't knowing, Claire.

If God is insane, we shouldn't expect it to be very wise, or consistent, now should we?

You might want to assume that God is perfectly sane, and that's fine, Claire.
It's just that I come to a different conclusion from the stories about God in the Bible.

In my opinion, the god of the Bible is not wise, consistent, good, OR sane.
I think that it's safe to say that most Christians would disagree.

That's not good enough because we don't have cases where Jesus changed His mind.

That's an opinion, Claire.
And I think that it's a wrong one.

We only have the texts that we have.
We don't know everything that went through Jesus's mind.

Maybe the Gospel authors decided to only INCLUDE the times when Jesus was ultra decisive or whatnot. Who knows, right? We don't even know who the Gospel writers were.

But in any case, John 7:8–10 reads:

8 “You go up to the feast. I am not going up to this feast, for my time has not yet fully come.� 9 After saying this, he remained in Galilee. 10 But after his brothers had gone up to the feast, then he also went up, not publicly but in private. [ESV]

That passage sure look to me that Jesus had a change of plan.

[polonius]

An omniscient God cannot change his mind. But a non-divine Messiah can.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/omniscient
omniscient - having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
possessed of universal or complete knowledge the omniscient God

And if the Bible says that God can change his mind, it isn't factual, only allegorical at best.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 235 by polonius.advice]


[center]
The Bible sure is allegorical, ain't it?[/center]

And if the Bible says that God can change his mind, it isn't factual, only allegorical at best.

Right..

And if the Bible says that God cannot change his mind, it isn't factual, only allegorical at best.

We don't have to just assume that the Bible is in any way factual.
I take it as a wonderful piece of historical poetry.

Lots of great honking stories.

[William]

An omniscient God cannot change his mind. But a non-divine Messiah can.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/omniscient
omniscient - having infinite awareness, understanding, and insight
possessed of universal or complete knowledge the omniscient God

And if the Bible says that God can change his mind, it isn't factual, only allegorical at best.

Not necessarily.

If there are levels of GOD-head, then while the ultimate default position of GOD might indeed be all knowing etc, this need not apply to all GODs which have different positions throughout the spectrum of life.

If, for example, the planet Earth is a living entity - a self conscious/self aware being which is able to access every conscious experience of form which is a part of life on the planet, it can be considered all knowing in relation to that, but not all knowing in relation to all that is.

Yet, by human standards, such a being could still be regarded as a God.

From the ultimate default position of GOD, such a being as a planet entity (and its immediate consciousness aspects - ie you and I) would be known.

From the perspective of the ultimate default position of GOD, every consciousness in form would be regarded as aspects of Itself, including planet Entities.

Since the bible GOD is obviously not all knowing, while that GOD can still be regarded as a God, It (They He, She) cannot be regarded as the ultimate GOD.
It can, however, change Its mind based upon new data.

The question then would be - "Is the Biblical GOD an acurate representation of the Ultimate GOD? {LINK}

[dio9]

[Replying to post 227 by hoghead1]

The prophet said , my thoughts are not your thoughts ; but I say may God's thoughts be my thoughts. God's are free and good with no personal bag of angst.
Jesus taught God is our parent. If you are a parent you know what this means, you always wish the best for your children. This doesn't change.
May God's thoughts be your thoughts.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 232 by Monta]

As I already pointed out, the Bible has around 100 passages that speak of God as changing, e.g., Gen. 6:6, Hosea 11:8, Amos 7:3, Malachi 3:5:7. And no, I don't think this was due to some "primitive" understanding on the part of the biblical authors. They are affirming God is sensitive, responsive to creation. The biblical God is not blankly neutral or wholly indifferent to happenings in the world, but evaluative sensitive to the differences in all things in a way analogous to pleasure and displeasure, in ourselves.

As I mentioned in a previous post, just for God to utter a single sentence is for god to change. Think of the changes you go through in uttering just a simple sentence.

Saying that God is "all wise" or omniscient also points to change in God. God know the future for what it is in its own nature: the realm of possibilities, not maters of fact set in cement. God cannot decide our decisions for us, we have to decide for ourselves. Until we do so, the future is open-ended, indeterminate, both for us and for God. Hence, whenever anything happens, God's changes, God moves from knowing X as merely potential to knowing X as a decided matter of fact. And God has learned something new.

Because God is continually creative, continually luring us to new-found possibilities for beauty, God is always changing because God is always experiencing something new.

Being "all wise" or omniscient alspo means God can change.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 235 by polonius.advice]

Yes, but you are reading back into the Bible a much later, Hellenic concept of God's knowledge, one that may not square at all with what the biblical writers had in mind. Around 100 passages clearly speak of God as changing his mind. Now, either these metaphors fit the actual reality of God, or they are meaningless and should be dropped.

The whole idea that God is immutable, does not change, came from the influx of Hellenistic metaphysics into the church. The Greeks enshrined the immune and the immutable. The problem is that this means God is ultimately indifferent, unresponsive. If God is wholly unaffected by the world, if noting can make any difference in God, then saint or sinner, it's all the same to God, who remains blissfully indifferent, the great Unmoved Mover. I and other contemporary neo-classical theists find this a most lopsided concept of divine perfection. If it is a virtue to say full speed ahead and damn the torpedoes, I won't be deterred by others, it is also a virtue to be deeply moved and affected by others. I view God as the eminently sensitive, responsive one. God enjoys a direct, immediate empathic response to any and all creaturely feeling. God is the Most Moved Mover.

Saying that God is omniscient does not deny God can change. I think of God as Cosmic Artist, the one who lures toward higher beauty, rather than a cosmic dictator who has predestined and predetermined every detail of creation. Because we have genuine freedom, we have to decide for ourselves. God cannot decide our decisions for us. And that means God knows the future for what it is in its own nature: the realm of possibilities, not matters set in cement. Whenever we made a decision, whenever something happens, God's knowledge changes, as God moves from knowing X as merely potential or possible to knowing X as actualized, qa definite matter of fact.