What is God?

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Zzyzx
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What is God?

Post #1

Post by Zzyzx »

.
Many people here and elsewhere speak as though they know a lot about God (or God of the Bible or God of Abraham) one of the thosands proposed).

However, when asked, they do NOT seem to know anything beyond

1. Vague generalities (a spirit, up in the sky, 'father', etc)
2. What God can do (all-knowing, all-powerful, omnipresent, etc)
3. What God supposedly did (created)
4. What God supposedly said (to someone?)
5. What God supposedly wants (obedience, worship)
6. What ancients wrote about their impressions of God

None of the above identifies what God IS.

In a current thread HogHead wisely observed:
hoghead1 wrote: If we don't know what God is, can't give God an affirmative content, then the concept of God is meaningless and should be dropped.
Ignosticism says much the same thing -- "we cannot intelligently discuss the topic of God until someone defines and describes what we are to discuss".

So, what IS the God of which you speak?
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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Re: What is God?

Post #151

Post by Willum »

[Replying to hoghead1]

Mass creates gravity.
A gravitational field is equal and opposite to it's mass.
(Actually I don't believe this premise myself, but it is a phenomenon I can't disprove, and there it is.)

The thing you need to consider in your "Mona Lisa analogy" is twofold.
1. If you calculate the number of molecules in a Mona Lisa and could apply them randomly - then you can do the math for how likely it would be to form the Mona Lisa, and by default, how many random canvasses you'd have to ruin.
2. You model neglects driving forces and order.
Gravity drives order. Thermal gradients drive order. Electro-magnetism drives order.

Nature would never drive a watch or painting. Only man would want to emulate something like that.

Respectfully

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Re: What is God?

Post #152

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to hoghead1]
I have yet to see the tornado example debunked. I have heard the argument that is some unimaginably small possibility this would occur and hence it did. But the probability of that happening has so many zeros ahead of it that it frankly isn't going to happen.


There are lots of analyses of abiogenesis probabilities and debunking of Fred Hoyle's initial comments on the subject (probably the most famous source of erroneous statistics as he was a bona fide accomplished astronomer), such as this common one:

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/abioprob/abioprob.html

The fact is we don't yet know exactly how life on this planet originated, but we know it started out relatively simple and has gotten relatively more complex as time has gone on. Our best explanation of this to date is a Darwinian process because it fits observations better than anything else. And it doesn't require the existence or intervention of any god or creator. It also does not rely on any particular process by which the first living creatures did come about ... only that they did.

Depending on the assumptions made for the starting molecular systems and environmental conditions at the time (some 3.5 - 4 billion years ago), and the definition for what "life" is, exactlly, the probabilities one would calculate for an abiogenesis event vary by ridiculous orders of magnitude. So it isn't possible to quantify the probability to any level of accuracy. But it can't be ruled out that life did in fact originate on this planet naturally from precursor materials, or a panspermia event, without any intervention by a god of some sort. It doesn't follow that because science can't yet explain how life originated on this planet, there must have been an intelligent designer involved. We have a very good road map now from the first simple prokaryotes all the way to humans. So the big, open question for science now is to understand how the precursors of those first prokaryotes came about, and the probability that they were created by some supernatural being seems very low.

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Re: What is God?

Post #153

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 151 by Willum]

I can't help but notice that we are getting way off the OP. However, I do have some comments here.

Gravity appears neutral as to order. In fact, it seems gravity can create as much chaos as order. A couple of years age I tripped and fell in my own living room. Result: broken shoulder. Gravity is one major factor that sent me to the floor, causing chaos. Gravity is trying to push the building down. You have to use your wits to design it so that it will stay up. And in conditions of zero gravity, there is still order. Witness the astronauts.

Mind, I see, as the major factor in order. Consider guys playing pool and drinking. At first, everything is going by the rules. Time passes, more alcohol is quaffed down. Everyone gets really loaded. Key mental functions are shut off by the booze. Now what? A big fight breaks out. Chaos. The less mind, the more chaos. Consider someone driving a car. Consider the driver as either drunk or texting. Mind not on the road. Result: wreck chaos. A major rail accident happened a couple of years ago because the engineer, going 105 mph, was busy texting his relatives. Mind not on the road. Result: major wreck. Gravity is operating under all these conditions, is a factor responsible for the wreck, but the big factor was mind, or absence thereof. Gravity will not keep your car on the road or the train on the track. Your mind has to do that. And I believe this same principle applies to the universe.

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Re: What is God?

Post #154

Post by hoghead1 »

[Replying to post 152 by DrNoGods]

Yes, but see, I do not believe Darwinian (now called neo-Darwinian) evolution gives a complete account of evolution. Neo-Darwinians focus on competition, but yet there is also considerable cooperation taking place in the evolutionary process. I also see a definite direction to the evolutionary process, whereas many neo-Darwinians do not. I see the trend is a continual development from the less complex to the more complex, from the less sensitive to the more sensitive. So there is something going on other than the struggle for survival. The more complex and sensitive are the more vulnerable. If we had a nuclear holocaust, it would be curtains for us, but cockroaches and other far simpler creatures would have a field day on what's left. I also view evolution as the rise of the novel and improbable. New creative possibilities are continually being introduced and actualized. And that means a transcendental imagination has entered the picture, i.e., God.

I think it is a mistake to assume God is introduced simply because we are ignorant and don't know how something works. We do in fact know how things work. And we know that all complex order requires a designing mind. We also know that anything that has a beginning has a creator. The universe had a beginning; therefore, there must be God, the creator. If there is no God, no creator, then existence is totally absurd. But I do not accept that.

Much as I respect science, I think its starting-point is misplaced. It starts way out there, whereas I think knowledge starts back here, with ourselves. I think all knowing is analogous knowing. To know, we must generalize from the familiar to the unfamiliar. What we know best is our human existence, So that should be our fundamental starting-point. We should generalize from there. So unless there is some analogy, some real likeness between ourselves and the rest of reality, we haven't got an inkling what's going on. Projection and anthropomorphizing aren't the problem, they are the solution. Consequently, I view the basic building blocks of reality, the atoms, so to speak, as momentary unities of subjective experience. I have no place for passive, inert, dead matter. Everything is alive. All things, in all their aspects, consist exclusively of minds. The universe is not a machine. It is a complex organism. And complex organisms all have a dominant member, a brain. So think of God as the brain of the universe.

I don't think the question of God is a scientific question. I don't think astronomy, or biology or chemistry or any science will solve it. I think the question of God is more like a question in math or logic. To start with, science is not equipped to determine whether there is or is not a God. It's the job of science to tell us what kind of universe we have got. If science finds the universe is different than what we thought, that simply means God created in a different way than we thought, and that's it. Science is neutral on the question of God.

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Re: What is God?

Post #155

Post by Willum »

[Replying to post 153 by hoghead1]

Ultimately, gravity pulls things together. It is your silly electro-chemical suit and your funny neutrons that causes the dis-order, in short, don't trip and blame gravity. :)

It isn't surprising we went off topic discussing what God is.
You can only say so much about something that either doesn't exist, or can be shown to exist. You get bored, you make other points.

V/R

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Re: What is God?

Post #156

Post by Willum »

CORRECTION
Willum wrote: [Replying to post 153 by hoghead1]

Ultimately, gravity pulls things together. It is your silly electro-chemical suit and your funny neutrons that causes the dis-order, in short, don't trip and blame gravity. :)

It isn't surprising we went off topic discussing what God is.
You can only say so much about something that either doesn't exist, or can't be shown to exist. You get bored, you make other points.

V/R

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Re: What is God?

Post #157

Post by MuffMaYne »

[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

I think some clear things we (Christians) can identify God as is what the Bible tells us he is, and even more than that we can say what he's like.

God is a spirit, a being with personality. In a sense he's a person, not a human, but a thing that exist and feels and has a personality.

The answer to the question really isn't that complicated unless you make it to be.

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Tired of the Nonsense
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Re: What is God?

Post #158

Post by Tired of the Nonsense »

MuffMaYne wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]

I think some clear things we (Christians) can identify God as is what the Bible tells us he is, and even more than that we can say what he's like.

God is a spirit, a being with personality. In a sense he's a person, not a human, but a thing that exist and feels and has a personality.

The answer to the question really isn't that complicated unless you make it to be.
Nothing is complicated if no thought is involved. Thinking things through can become complicated however. The Bible tells us what God is like. This can become complicated if one thinks things through however, because the Bible is contradictory concerning the nature of God. For example the Bible tells us that God is omnipotent. The Bible also tells is that God is jealous, becomes angry at the way things turn out, and sometimes changes His mind. In other words, we are told by the Bible that an omnipotent Being sometimes fails to achieve His originally intended goals. An omnipotent Being that fails is a contradiction in terms.

The Bible also tells us that it is the Word of God. And, as you indicate, the Bible tells us about the nature of God. The existence of God is verified by the Bible, and God verifies the truth of the Bible, according to the Bible. This sort of mutually verifying attempt at logic is known as circular reasoning. It's a trick produced with smoke and mirrors, and has nothing to do with actual logic at all.

But of course nothing is complicated... unless one actually thinks about the things they think they believe in. And thoughts can be the mortal enemy of simple blind faith and abject gullibility.
Image "The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this." -- Albert Einstein -- Written in 1954 to Jewish philosopher Erik Gutkind.

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Re: What is God?

Post #159

Post by William »

[Replying to post 158 by Tired of the Nonsense]
The Bible also tells us that it is the Word of God.
Citations please.

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Re: What is God?

Post #160

Post by Zzyzx »

.
MuffMaYne wrote: I think some clear things we (Christians) can identify God as is what the Bible tells us he is,
Thus, Christians base their ideas about what God is like upon tales by ancient storytellers who cannot be identified with certainty and who cannot be shown to have any personal knowledge of what they write about.
MuffMaYne wrote: and even more than that we can say what he's like.
Based on what? Imagination?
MuffMaYne wrote: God is a spirit, a being with personality.
The same can be said for any of the thousands of competing gods – or the Easter Bunny – none of which can be shown to be anything more than products of overworked imagination.
MuffMaYne wrote: In a sense he's a person, not a human, but a thing that exist and feels and has a personality.
Quetzalcoatl can be described as 'a spirit, a being with personality, a person / not human, has feelings and personality.
MuffMaYne wrote: The answer to the question really isn't that complicated unless you make it to be.
Some of us ask complicated or difficult questions rather than swallowing what we are told without question.
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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