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Christians and their literature refer to 'hard (or harden) hearts'.
People with some comprehension of modern medicine understand that the heart is a blood pump (though ancient storytellers may not have been aware).
Since substantial hardening would interfere with blood pumping, it is unlikely that the term is (now) intended to be literally applied.
So, what does it mean?
A suggestion: It appears to me that 'hard heart' refers to people who choose to not do or say what believers wish them to do or say -- or people who are not easily intimidated or coerced into believing in (or following supposed instructions of) the Bible God -- or those who oppose religionists who claim to be 'God's chosen people'
What, exactly, is a 'hard heart'?
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Zzyzx
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What, exactly, is a 'hard heart'?
Post #1.
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
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ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
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Youkilledkenny
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Re: What, exactly, is a 'hard heart'?
Post #2[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]
From my experience it's when someone turns their ways from God - not listening to him, doing what he wants, etc.
But I'm sure other Christian sects teach differently.
From my experience it's when someone turns their ways from God - not listening to him, doing what he wants, etc.
But I'm sure other Christian sects teach differently.
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theophile
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Re: What, exactly, is a 'hard heart'?
Post #3[Replying to Zzyzx]
Usually the simplest answers are best, even if hardest to discern.
In this case, picture a child surrounded by toys, but largely uninterested in them.
Once another child comes to play with one of said toys, the original child's heart will harden. They will grab the toy and claim it as theirs. They will not want to give it up.
That's an example of the quite simple and oft experienced phenomenon that we see, say, in Exodus, when God predicts that the plagues will harden pharaoh's heart. God knows it is going to get harder before it gets better. Or that in trying to take Israel away from pharaoh, pharaoh will tighten his grip. His heart will harden, and be unlikely to love.
Of course, nobody want to read it this way, as simple and obvious as it is.
Usually the simplest answers are best, even if hardest to discern.
In this case, picture a child surrounded by toys, but largely uninterested in them.
Once another child comes to play with one of said toys, the original child's heart will harden. They will grab the toy and claim it as theirs. They will not want to give it up.
That's an example of the quite simple and oft experienced phenomenon that we see, say, in Exodus, when God predicts that the plagues will harden pharaoh's heart. God knows it is going to get harder before it gets better. Or that in trying to take Israel away from pharaoh, pharaoh will tighten his grip. His heart will harden, and be unlikely to love.
Of course, nobody want to read it this way, as simple and obvious as it is.
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DanieltheDragon
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Re: What, exactly, is a 'hard heart'?
Post #4[Replying to post 3 by theophile]
Actually if you read the text pharoahs heart hardens before each plague not after. The text also shows that God is actively hardening pharoahs heart. So a hardened heart in that sense is simply God removing your free will and making you choose what he wants you to choose.
There is also a New Testament allusion to this story but in a separate context of someone with a stubborn heart but without God causing the stubbornness.
Actually if you read the text pharoahs heart hardens before each plague not after. The text also shows that God is actively hardening pharoahs heart. So a hardened heart in that sense is simply God removing your free will and making you choose what he wants you to choose.
There is also a New Testament allusion to this story but in a separate context of someone with a stubborn heart but without God causing the stubbornness.
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theophile
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Re: What, exactly, is a 'hard heart'?
Post #5[Replying to DanieltheDragon]
If you look at the Hebrew verb describing God's action here, yes, there is a causative aspect to it, but I don't think we can make the leap that you do here that God "removed free will" from the equation. (Note: a child wanting another child's toy, and making that clear, similarly "causes" a hard heart, but no free will is removed.)
Also, Moses made it clear that he wanted Israel free. God knew this demand was going to harden pharaoh's heart. The plagues, or attempts to crack pharaoh, only hardened it more.
So I think my view is still perfectly viable and doesn't require a leap to removal of free will, which isn't stated at all in the text.
Instead, it relies only on perfectly natural human responses that God could reasonably expect.
Again, the simpler the interpretation the better.
That's the traditional view which I find unacceptable.Actually if you read the text pharoahs heart hardens before each plague not after. The text also shows that God is actively hardening pharoahs heart. So a hardened heart in that sense is simply God removing your free will and making you choose what he wants you to choose.
If you look at the Hebrew verb describing God's action here, yes, there is a causative aspect to it, but I don't think we can make the leap that you do here that God "removed free will" from the equation. (Note: a child wanting another child's toy, and making that clear, similarly "causes" a hard heart, but no free will is removed.)
Also, Moses made it clear that he wanted Israel free. God knew this demand was going to harden pharaoh's heart. The plagues, or attempts to crack pharaoh, only hardened it more.
So I think my view is still perfectly viable and doesn't require a leap to removal of free will, which isn't stated at all in the text.
Instead, it relies only on perfectly natural human responses that God could reasonably expect.
Again, the simpler the interpretation the better.
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benchwarmer
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Re: What, exactly, is a 'hard heart'?
Post #6[Replying to post 1 by Zzyzx]
Bacon. Simply too much bacon.
Apparently we WERE warned about eating pig flesh.
As for the Christian use of this term, my opinion is that it is a way to blame others for not following the imaginary god concept put forward. One's disbelief in an invisible sky daddy has nothing at all to do with lack of any real evidence, but your very own 'hard heart'. Basically implying you are 'bad' and only want to do evil unless you check your brain at the door and drink the kool-aid with us.
Bacon. Simply too much bacon.
Apparently we WERE warned about eating pig flesh.
As for the Christian use of this term, my opinion is that it is a way to blame others for not following the imaginary god concept put forward. One's disbelief in an invisible sky daddy has nothing at all to do with lack of any real evidence, but your very own 'hard heart'. Basically implying you are 'bad' and only want to do evil unless you check your brain at the door and drink the kool-aid with us.
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DanieltheDragon
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Re: What, exactly, is a 'hard heart'?
Post #7[Replying to post 5 by theophile]
Additionally the text specifically states why God hardened his heart and it wasn't to free the Jews. In fact no translation I am aware of supports your view. So we can just chalk that up to interpretation number 40,001.
Exodus 7:3
New International Version
But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt,
New Living Translation
But I will make Pharaoh's heart stubborn so I can multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in the land of Egypt.
English Standard Version
But I will harden Pharaohs heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt,
New American Standard Bible
"But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
King James Bible
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
But I will harden Pharaoh's heart and multiply My signs and wonders in the land of Egypt.
International Standard Version
I'll harden Pharaoh's heart and I'll add more and more of my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt.
NET Bible
But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and although I will multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt,
New Heart English Bible
I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
GOD'S WORD Translation
But I will make Pharaoh stubborn. Even though I will do many miraculous signs and amazing things in Egypt,
JPS Tanakh 1917
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
New American Standard 1977
But I will harden Pharaohs heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
Jubilee Bible 2000
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
King James 2000 Bible
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
American King James Version
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
Otherwise known as cognitive dissonance. The moral implications of the story run contrary to your idea about God. To resolve this conflict and mental duress you reinterpret the text that makes no sense. As I pointed out your claim that the plagues hardened his heart are flat out wrong chronologically as his heart was hardened before the first plague.That's the traditional view which I find unacceptable.
Additionally the text specifically states why God hardened his heart and it wasn't to free the Jews. In fact no translation I am aware of supports your view. So we can just chalk that up to interpretation number 40,001.
Exodus 7:3
New International Version
But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in Egypt,
New Living Translation
But I will make Pharaoh's heart stubborn so I can multiply my miraculous signs and wonders in the land of Egypt.
English Standard Version
But I will harden Pharaohs heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt,
New American Standard Bible
"But I will harden Pharaoh's heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
King James Bible
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
But I will harden Pharaoh's heart and multiply My signs and wonders in the land of Egypt.
International Standard Version
I'll harden Pharaoh's heart and I'll add more and more of my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt.
NET Bible
But I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and although I will multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt,
New Heart English Bible
I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
GOD'S WORD Translation
But I will make Pharaoh stubborn. Even though I will do many miraculous signs and amazing things in Egypt,
JPS Tanakh 1917
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
New American Standard 1977
But I will harden Pharaohs heart that I may multiply My signs and My wonders in the land of Egypt.
Jubilee Bible 2000
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
King James 2000 Bible
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
American King James Version
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
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DanieltheDragon
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Re: What, exactly, is a 'hard heart'?
Post #8[Replying to post 5 by theophile]
Additionally you believe in an all powerful all knowing God that can create universes. If he wanted to free the Jews from Egypt he could have simply done so by warming pharoahs heart instead of hardening it. So why would he harden pharoahs heart?
The crux is in exodus 7:5
The Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring out the people of Israel from among them.
This is about self engrandizement.
Why not give blessings to the people of Israel instead of plagues on the Egyptian? Surely a God of love would consider positive encouragement vs negative encouragement? Maybe we can go back to the text for answers.
Nahum 1:2
A jealous and avenging God is the LORD; The LORD is avenging and wrathful. The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies.
Duet 6:15
for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land.
Maybe God isn't who you think he is..
Additionally you believe in an all powerful all knowing God that can create universes. If he wanted to free the Jews from Egypt he could have simply done so by warming pharoahs heart instead of hardening it. So why would he harden pharoahs heart?
The crux is in exodus 7:5
The Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I stretch out my hand against Egypt and bring out the people of Israel from among them.
This is about self engrandizement.
Why not give blessings to the people of Israel instead of plagues on the Egyptian? Surely a God of love would consider positive encouragement vs negative encouragement? Maybe we can go back to the text for answers.
Nahum 1:2
A jealous and avenging God is the LORD; The LORD is avenging and wrathful. The LORD takes vengeance on His adversaries, And He reserves wrath for His enemies.
Duet 6:15
for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land.
Maybe God isn't who you think he is..
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William
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The heard-hearted
Post #9I think it expresses the idea of a certain negative emotion. This is felt in the chest area.
One 'hardens their heart' in relation to not being willing to let go of something. Even not being able to let go of disappointment, not getting one's own way, being possessive, wanting revenge, etc.
One 'hardens their heart' in relation to not being willing to let go of something. Even not being able to let go of disappointment, not getting one's own way, being possessive, wanting revenge, etc.
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theophile
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Re: What, exactly, is a 'hard heart'?
Post #10[Replying to DanieltheDragon]
Otherwise known as reading too much into things.
The simplest explanation is often best. I win.
I've said why yours is wrong. The text doesn't say anything about free will, and I've offered a simpler explanation that relies only on natural human responses.
Where in any of those translations you cited do you see the words "removed free will"?Otherwise known as cognitive dissonance.
Otherwise known as reading too much into things.
The simplest explanation is often best. I win.
Please tell me how my view makes no sense. You've yet to say anything on that, but only that your view is right.To resolve this conflict and mental duress you reinterpret the text that makes no sense
I've said why yours is wrong. The text doesn't say anything about free will, and I've offered a simpler explanation that relies only on natural human responses.
The question isn't why God did what God did, but what does it mean for a heart to harden.Additionally the text specifically states why God hardened his heart and it wasn't to free the Jews.
When did I declare that belief? Otherwise known as making poor assumptions.Additionally you believe in an all powerful all knowing God that can create universes.
Maybe God isn't who you think he is. You sure as hell don't know what I think God is.Maybe God isn't who you think he is..
