Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

[dio9]

Is Jewish Jesus and Christian Christ the same person?

Point being, Jesus did not fulfill the Jewish expectation for the Messiah. The Christian Christ fulfilled a different role as the sacrificial savior. How do we bridge our Christian Christ with Jewish Jesus?

Do you think Jesus thought of himself as the Divine second person of the holy trinity?

[Monta]

[Replying to post 59 by Pierac]


"According to its OT usage, the term Messiah, the Anointed One, indicates a call to office. Most certainly, it was not the title of an aspect of the Godhead. This is a later Gentile invention that came about by ignoring Jesus’ Jewish context and inventing a doctrine called the Incarnation- the idea that a second member of the Trinity, God the son, became a human being. As Lockhart says, in Jesus the Heretic, p.137. “Christianity ignored the ‘Messiah’ and theologically worked the ‘Christ’ up into the ‘God-Man.’ Jesus as the ‘Messiah’ is a human being; Jesus as the ‘Christ’ is something entirely different.�

I think Jesus himself ignored Jewish context. He did not teach Judaism but a new religion of repentantance, washing of sins, forgiveness, everlasting life.

Messiah is a Jewish term and as the Word descended for all mankind, a new name Christ, was appropriate. Jewish saw their Messiah a man, it does not fit in with
Jesus the Christ: "I came from the Father".

You are right, God-Man or God the son is not used in New Testament nor by Christians who study the Bible.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 44 by dio9]

in other words, the earth?

sure...

If the kingdom is earth then hasn't it already come?

and then in spirit forever.

This has no meaning. To answer the question

What is the kingdom?

"The earth [ie "sure"] and then in spirit forever" actually is a nonsense sentence it has no meaning.

Do you know what God's kingdom is? From what you have said all I can glean is "God's kingdom is the earth" is this a fair summary of your view?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 62 by JehovahsWitness]


[center]

Believing something isn't the same as knowing it[/center]

Do you know what God's kingdom is?

Some people confuse their beliefs with knowledge.

____________

Question:

• 
  
  You seem to imply that you know what the Kingdom of God is. You sure have a belief. But do you KNOW?
  
  

____________

[dio9]

[Replying to post 44 by dio9]

in other words, the earth?

sure...

If the kingdom is earth then hasn't it already come?

and then in spirit forever.

This has no meaning. To answer the question

What is the kingdom?

"The earth [ie "sure"] and then in spirit forever" actually is a nonsense sentence it has no meaning.

Do you know what God's kingdom is? From what you have said all I can glean is "God's kingdom is the earth" is this a fair summary of your view?

If Christ dwells in you you are in heaven , right here right now. If Christ does not dwell in you , you are not in the kingdom of heaven. Heaven is all around us , we can experience it when we transcend the bag of angst we live in. Like the prophet said my thoughts are not your thoughts (talking to God) but your thoughts can be my thoughts , all we have to do is transcend ourselves. God is there like a parent welcoming home his prodigal son. We are all prodigals until we come home.

[dio9]

In answer to my starting question; the answer is no Messiah and Christ do not have the same meaning.

[JehovahsWitness]

If Christ dwells in you you are in heaven , right here right now.

• I didn't ask what heaven is, I asked : What is God's Kingdom. Jesus taught his followers to pray "Let your kingdom come", what is that kingdom.

From your answers I have gleaned you are saying:

God's kingdom is this our planet earth. (when I asked you "so it's the earth?" you answered ..."sure")
or ...
God's kingdom is a feeling inside the heart of believers.

So do you believe God's Kingdom is a planet or a feeling? Or other?




JW

ps: There is no shame is saying "I don't know what God's kingdom is" I didn't know for many years until someone taught me.

[dio9]

[Replying to post 66 by JehovahsWitness]

I know what it is , I just can't describe it.

Anyhow, the question I asked in the beginning concerns the Jewish expectation as one theo-political King like David.

Or the Christian's belief in a crucified and risen spiritual savior.

The Jewish Messiah hasn't come , they are still waiting.

We Christian's can say yes the kingdom of heaven exists here and most fully when we are transcendent of our mortal selves.

Can we transcend our mortal selves in this lifetime? I think so , and we can rise above sin maybe if only for some minutes and hours of the day. Like Peter's walk on the water. When we sink as we will , into our angst , Jesus is there to lift us up to where he is. I believe Jesus was walking in heaven even when he was among us. Heaven is now and then , here and there, inside and outside.

[onewithhim]

And wouldn't sons of God naturally live in the kingdom heaven?

What is God's kingdom?

Are you saying you don't know?
What I say is a son of God can live nowhere else. The kingdom of God is where the sons and daughters of God live. Are we there yet? No , but John 1:11 says Christ gives us the power to be sons (and daughters) of God.

My friend, JehovahsWitness, certainly knows what God's Kingdom is; most people do not, and I'm sure that's why the question was asked of you.

The churches have dropped the ball on this one, unfortunately. People aren't being taught that God's Kingdom is an actual government with its headquarters in heaven. It has territory over which it rules (the earth), it has laws, it has subjects (or, citizens), and it has a ruler (like a king, president, prime minister, etc.). God's government's ruler is Jesus Christ. He will rule the earth from his headquarters in heaven, similarly to a president ruling from Washington, D.C., over his citizens near and far. The Bible depicts Jesus Christ and his government as the only hope for the peace and longevity and happiness of mankind. That is why we have been taught by Christ to pray like he prayed at Matthew 6:9,10:

"After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven ." (KJV)


And then, speaking of Jesus and his co-rulers:

"...Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us for God with thy blood, out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and hast made them for our God a kingdom and priests, and they shall reign over the earth." (The Apocalypse: 5:9,10; "Holy Trinity" Edition of the Catholic Bible, 1951.)

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 44 by dio9]

in other words, the earth?

sure , and then in spirit forever. Life you see is eternal, it animates the body for a time. We are actually spirit with a body.

In response to your asking what heaven is ; Heaven is a unity of divine and human , the uncreated resonating within the created. The kingdom of God is happening now for some and it could be happening for more. The kingdom is like a mustard seed. This is the good news.

Beg to differ about being a "spirit with a body." We are bodies with spirit, "spirit" being the force that causes living beings to be alive. When a living being dies, that force no longer is operative upon that body. It "returns" to God in the sense that He was the Source of that life and He is now the future hope of that individual. There is nothing there to indicate that a spirit person left their body and went off somewhere with consciousness, still knowing what was going on. In fact, the Scriptures say that "the dead are conscious of nothing." (Eccles.9:5)

I agree that the Kingdom is "like a mustard seed" that grows to be a mighty tree that reaches throughout the whole earth. The Kingdom will reign over the earth....a real government with real subjects and laws and territory. (Matt.13:31) It will destroy all man-made governments and it will rule forever. (Daniel 2:44)



"The God of heaven will set up a kingdom which will never be destroyed, and that kingdom will not be left for another people; it will crush and put an end to all these kingdoms, but it will itself endure forever." (Dan.2:44, NASB)

[dio9]

And wouldn't sons of God naturally live in the kingdom heaven?

What is God's kingdom?

Are you saying you don't know?
What I say is a son of God can live nowhere else. The kingdom of God is where the sons and daughters of God live. Are we there yet? No , but John 1:11 says Christ gives us the power to be sons (and daughters) of God.

My friend, JehovahsWitness, certainly knows what God's Kingdom is; most people do not, and I'm sure that's why the question was asked of you.

The churches have dropped the ball on this one, unfortunately. People aren't being taught that God's Kingdom is an actual government with its headquarters in heaven. It has territory over which it rules (the earth), it has laws, it has subjects (or, citizens), and it has a ruler (like a king, president, prime minister, etc.). God's government's ruler is Jesus Christ. He will rule the earth from his headquarters in heaven, similarly to a president ruling from Washington, D.C., over his citizens near and far. The Bible depicts Jesus Christ and his government as the only hope for the peace and longevity and happiness of mankind. That is why we have been taught by Christ to pray like he prayed at Matthew 6:9,10:

"After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven ." (KJV)


And then, speaking of Jesus and his co-rulers:

"...Thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us for God with thy blood, out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation, and hast made them for our God a kingdom and priests, and they shall reign over the earth." (The Apocalypse: 5:9,10; "Holy Trinity" Edition of the Catholic Bible, 1951.)

Well yes sure this is a vision of the "Christian kingdom of heaven" but not the historic Jewish expectation and hope.