Immortality of the soul
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Immortality of the soul
Post #1Do we as humans posses an immortal soul as believed by most people? I am of the view that we do not.
Post #161
[Replying to post 159 by JehovahsWitness]
If you believe in an unjust God this would be true. But God is just and has a plan and purpose for all things. Take God's fire. religion believes God's fire is natural fire the type of fire that you roast a hot dog or people in hell. But God is a spirit and natural fire is something God has no need with for His fire is spiritual. The word fire in the Greek is the Greek word "pur" which we get our English words pure, purify, purge etc. I am flesh, and carnal and I praise God for my carnality; my sin and even my shame. Perfection will come; but God is using our sin, our shortcoming, our spiritual immaturity to bring about that spiritual maturity; not religious maturity; God is more interested in the process.
The Children of Israel could of taken 9 days to cross the wilderness. BUT No God led them for forty years. Now we are walking in this wilderness of life for the same reason:
Deut 8:1-2
All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.
2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments. (KJV)
When Jesus was baptized in the RIVER Jordon; He received a dove (He is perfect) ; BUT on the day Pentecostal had fully come what did believers get, the Holy Spirit with cloven tongues of fire; we are not perfect. So often Christians condemn the world for its flesh and sin; ignoring the log in our own eye. Sin was put here by God to change us; and He is changing us now and will change us by the purging power of His divine fire.
Even though the judgements of God will be against the evil works that man has done, those judgements will still result in man's salvation. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 says, "Every man's work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
"God is spirit - that is His substance. God is love that is His nature. God is also light and fire - they are His manifestations. We speak of fiery trials, HE IS IN EVERY ONE OF THEM. May we go even farther? He is the source of the fire in our fiery trial, HE' is the fire thereof.
The fire to burn out the dross is the Holy Spirit God has placed within, GOD is fire.
"Kenneth Wuest, in his translation, calls the fiery trial 'the smelting process.' A fiery ordeal, a smelting process - why? because it will both purify us, as well as reveal what degree of quality has been attained within. We become so involved with the exterior happenings of the trial, how our flesh hurts, etc., that we forget the actual purpose is for the INNER PROCESSING, until we are of a PURE SPIRIT before Him.
If you believe in an unjust God this would be true. But God is just and has a plan and purpose for all things. Take God's fire. religion believes God's fire is natural fire the type of fire that you roast a hot dog or people in hell. But God is a spirit and natural fire is something God has no need with for His fire is spiritual. The word fire in the Greek is the Greek word "pur" which we get our English words pure, purify, purge etc. I am flesh, and carnal and I praise God for my carnality; my sin and even my shame. Perfection will come; but God is using our sin, our shortcoming, our spiritual immaturity to bring about that spiritual maturity; not religious maturity; God is more interested in the process.
The Children of Israel could of taken 9 days to cross the wilderness. BUT No God led them for forty years. Now we are walking in this wilderness of life for the same reason:
Deut 8:1-2
All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the LORD sware unto your fathers.
2 And thou shalt remember all the way which the LORD thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments. (KJV)
When Jesus was baptized in the RIVER Jordon; He received a dove (He is perfect) ; BUT on the day Pentecostal had fully come what did believers get, the Holy Spirit with cloven tongues of fire; we are not perfect. So often Christians condemn the world for its flesh and sin; ignoring the log in our own eye. Sin was put here by God to change us; and He is changing us now and will change us by the purging power of His divine fire.
Even though the judgements of God will be against the evil works that man has done, those judgements will still result in man's salvation. 1 Corinthians 3:13-15 says, "Every man's work shall be made manifest; for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
"God is spirit - that is His substance. God is love that is His nature. God is also light and fire - they are His manifestations. We speak of fiery trials, HE IS IN EVERY ONE OF THEM. May we go even farther? He is the source of the fire in our fiery trial, HE' is the fire thereof.
The fire to burn out the dross is the Holy Spirit God has placed within, GOD is fire.
"Kenneth Wuest, in his translation, calls the fiery trial 'the smelting process.' A fiery ordeal, a smelting process - why? because it will both purify us, as well as reveal what degree of quality has been attained within. We become so involved with the exterior happenings of the trial, how our flesh hurts, etc., that we forget the actual purpose is for the INNER PROCESSING, until we are of a PURE SPIRIT before Him.
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ttruscott
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Post #162
I really don't think this is a doctrine in any church - can you post reference to where I am wrong?marco wrote:The theology we invent by regarding soul and body as the same requires us to believe that human flesh will last forever, with the same bodily functions - except aging. Babies will stay as babies. Imaginative, yes.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
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ttruscott
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Post #163
What a fantastical idea...completely against scripture: James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. 15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death.Benoni wrote: You see when Adam sinned in the garden that to was God's will.
Your suggestion implies GOD tempted them with the fruit and with the command not to eat. It fails...
The Lamb was slain before the world was, so either there was sin pre-earth or He took the job of Christ pre-sin because with free will being given to all those created in HIS image, sin was a possibility that had to be prepared for.For without a sinner there is no reason for a saviour.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
Post #164
[Replying to post 161 by ttruscott]
I am a process theologian, process being a major, well-respected movement in contemporary Christian thought. We hold that mind and matter are one, not two separate, independent realities. If you want to see the mind, it is the size and shape of the brain and nervous system. I also hold that we are immortal because God's memory preservers and enjoys all our experiences forever. While we may cease to exist in the current body we have, we do live on in a physical or newly embodied way, merged with the body of God. In the hereafter, our body is God's body, the universe.
I am also PCUSA, and we allow for considerable freedom in doctrines. Hence, I know of other church members and scholars who share my views, and also many others who do not. I have a dual church membership and am also a Unitarian, and we stress doctrinal openness on all issues. We are a bring-your-own theology church.
I am a process theologian, process being a major, well-respected movement in contemporary Christian thought. We hold that mind and matter are one, not two separate, independent realities. If you want to see the mind, it is the size and shape of the brain and nervous system. I also hold that we are immortal because God's memory preservers and enjoys all our experiences forever. While we may cease to exist in the current body we have, we do live on in a physical or newly embodied way, merged with the body of God. In the hereafter, our body is God's body, the universe.
I am also PCUSA, and we allow for considerable freedom in doctrines. Hence, I know of other church members and scholars who share my views, and also many others who do not. I have a dual church membership and am also a Unitarian, and we stress doctrinal openness on all issues. We are a bring-your-own theology church.
Post #165
No not at all. it was God's plan. If it is completely against scripture than you do not know scripture. Did any one mention "God is tempting me?" I am telling you nothing happens outside of God's will to especially the fall of Adam. Do you really think the fall surprised God? No such thing in scripture as man having a free will when it comes to salvation that is a religious myth based on air. So you are saying the lamb was not slain before the foundation of the earth? So are these verses a lie to?ttruscott wrote:What a fantastical idea...completely against scripture: James 1:13 When tempted, no one should say, God is tempting me. For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does He tempt anyone. 14 But each one is tempted when by his own evil desires he is lured away and enticed. 15 Then after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is fully grown, it gives birth to death.Benoni wrote: You see when Adam sinned in the garden that to was God's will.
Your suggestion implies GOD tempted them with the fruit and with the command not to eat. It fails...
The Lamb was slain before the world was, so either there was sin pre-earth or He took the job of Christ pre-sin because with free will being given to all those created in HIS image, sin was a possibility that had to be prepared for.For without a sinner there is no reason for a saviour.
1 Peter 1:19 but with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot. 20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you 21who through Him believe in God, who raised Him from the dead and gave Him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.
Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
Post #166
[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]
[center]Another case of Religious English vs Secular English[/center]
I think that people should say what they mean to say.
If someone means "human being", they should say that.
No use in confusing the issue with a "spiritual" sounding word like "soul".
As a matter of fact, we could also say that the "spirit" we have or has us is "life"...
So we could say "this human being is alive" or we can say that "this soul has spirit".
I think the first version is WAY more precise.
but then again, I think that secular English is way more precise than any religious English.
And translation between those two versions of English is an art.
It sure ain't a science.
[center]Another case of Religious English vs Secular English[/center]
Then the term "soul" is confusing at best.JehovahsWitness wrote:
From a biblical point of view we do not posses a soul (we ARE "souls"), a soul just being another word for "living breathing being" (or, as in the case of humans "a person").
The bible teaches that the soul far from being "immortal" dies and at that moment ceases to exist.
I think that people should say what they mean to say.
If someone means "human being", they should say that.
No use in confusing the issue with a "spiritual" sounding word like "soul".
As a matter of fact, we could also say that the "spirit" we have or has us is "life"...
So we could say "this human being is alive" or we can say that "this soul has spirit".
I think the first version is WAY more precise.
but then again, I think that secular English is way more precise than any religious English.
And translation between those two versions of English is an art.
It sure ain't a science.
Post #167
[Replying to post 163 by hoghead1]
[center]
People tend to respect their own brand of religion[/center]
Whataryagonnado?
We all like our own brand better than the rest.
[center]
People tend to respect their own brand of religion[/center]
Way more respected by the process theologians, I bet.hoghead1 wrote:
I am a process theologian, process being a major, well-respected movement in contemporary Christian thought.
Whataryagonnado?
We all like our own brand better than the rest.
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ttruscott
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Post #168
Thank you for sharing of yourself. I barely know about process theology but have not been attracted to it due to my single minded concentration on Pre-Conception Existence theology as Biblically supported. What process thought seems to say I find in the one idea, GOD is a living GOD: Jeremiah 10:10 But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. true - not false, living - not static nor uninvolved, eternal - from eternity to eternity, king - HIS status above HIS creation, a Father King.hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 161 by ttruscott]
I am a process theologian, process being a major, well-respected movement in contemporary Christian thought. We hold that mind and matter are one, not two separate, independent realities. If you want to see the mind, it is the size and shape of the brain and nervous system. I also hold that we are immortal because God's memory preservers and enjoys all our experiences forever. While we may cease to exist in the current body we have, we do live on in a physical or newly embodied way, merged with the body of God. In the hereafter, our body is God's body, the universe.
I am also PCUSA, and we allow for considerable freedom in doctrines. Hence, I know of other church members and scholars who share my views, and also many others who do not. I have a dual church membership and am also a Unitarian, and we stress doctrinal openness on all issues. We are a bring-your-own theology church.
I don't know what problems orthodoxy caused people to move to process thinking. I do know it is self described as not panentheistic but what you write about your belief seems to fit panentheism as I understand it.
PCE Theology as I see it...
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
We had an existence with a free will in Sheol before the creation of the physical universe. Here we chose to be able to become holy or to be eternally evil in YHWH's sight. Then the physical universe was created and all sinners were sent to earth.
This theology debunks the need to base Christianity upon the blasphemy of creating us in Adam's sin.
Post #169
Freewill is a religious term not a biblical one. Man has no will to save himself.ttruscott wrote:Thank you for sharing of yourself. I barely know about process theology but have not been attracted to it due to my single minded concentration on Pre-Conception Existence theology as Biblically supported. What process thought seems to say I find in the one idea, GOD is a living GOD: Jeremiah 10:10 But the LORD is the true God; he is the living God, the eternal King. true - not false, living - not static nor uninvolved, eternal - from eternity to eternity, king - HIS status above HIS creation, a Father King.hoghead1 wrote: [Replying to post 161 by ttruscott]
I am a process theologian, process being a major, well-respected movement in contemporary Christian thought. We hold that mind and matter are one, not two separate, independent realities. If you want to see the mind, it is the size and shape of the brain and nervous system. I also hold that we are immortal because God's memory preservers and enjoys all our experiences forever. While we may cease to exist in the current body we have, we do live on in a physical or newly embodied way, merged with the body of God. In the hereafter, our body is God's body, the universe.
I am also PCUSA, and we allow for considerable freedom in doctrines. Hence, I know of other church members and scholars who share my views, and also many others who do not. I have a dual church membership and am also a Unitarian, and we stress doctrinal openness on all issues. We are a bring-your-own theology church.
I don't know what problems orthodoxy caused people to move to process thinking. I do know it is self described as not panentheistic but what you write about your belief seems to fit panentheism as I understand it.
Post #170
[Replying to post 167 by ttruscott]
And thank you for sharing your theological orientation. Your first comment about process is definitely correct. However, your second comment, that process claims it is not panentheistic, is way, way off. Sorry, but it is. Process is often self- described as panentheistic. In fact, one of the granddaddies of process, Charles Hartshorne (1897-2000), introduced the term "panentheism" into contemporary theology, though it had been used earlier.
And thank you for sharing your theological orientation. Your first comment about process is definitely correct. However, your second comment, that process claims it is not panentheistic, is way, way off. Sorry, but it is. Process is often self- described as panentheistic. In fact, one of the granddaddies of process, Charles Hartshorne (1897-2000), introduced the term "panentheism" into contemporary theology, though it had been used earlier.
