What kind of Father demands the blood of His Son?

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Mon Mar 06, 2017 1:40 pm

Is the God of Jesus a merciful forgiving Father?

Or a bloodthirsty deity who must be appeased by the blood of animals, then later, by the blood of His favorite Son?

I realize these are loaded questions, and that my bias is apparent.

But which is it, merciful Father or Judge who demands blood?*

Which kind of God did Jesus himself teach? (not Paul, but Jesus)

What kind of Father demands the blood of his favorite Son in order to be able to forgive his other children?

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(note.. this thread is about forgiveness and atonement, not about the wars of YHVH's people etc.)

*if you answer "both" then please demonstrate how the two notions are compatible.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:25 am

So here's some food for thought on this thread.

First off the title of the thread is misleading. Jehovah God didn't demand His Son to do anything. Jesus came willingly.

Second, what would have happened to mankind if not a single creature in Heaven volunteered to pay for the mankind's sin?

Options are:

(1) Let Adam and Eve die not allowing them to have children. End of story. None of us would be here. This would have proven God's power but it wouldn't have answered the challenge if Jehovah should be the one who determines what is good and bad. Wouldn't countless angels watching all of this begin having questions of their own, wondering, what is God hiding?

(2) God abandon his own law and allow Adam and Eve to continue to live as rebels and sinners. Giving them eternal life anyway. This would be no different than an actual Hell on Earth. People with evil desires never dying and no can even die to escape these them.

(3) God abandon His own law. Forgive Adam and Eve and take but take away their freedom of choice. It would be only way to avoid option 2. They'd be alive but have the awareness of an animal. Living on instinct and no longer self-aware. Is that really living?

What other options are there other than someone pay for the transgression against God? How is it possible for the creator of all things to suddenly abandon holiness? Would we really want such a ruler? A ruler that just lets things go is that what people really want?

ttruscott · Post by **ttruscott** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:33 am

marco wrote:
Claire Evans wrote:
God was reaching out to all people through Jesus, not just to the Jews.
His reach was defective then, since "all people" did not get the message of Christ. I'm sure God could have found a more efficient way, but even gods make mistakes it seems. All the same, he had another try when he sent Muhammad. That looks a bit more promising judging by the number of converts to the Religion of Peace.

GOD's reach was not defective in that the gospel we have heard and believed HAS BEEN preached already to every creature under heaven Col 1:23. But those who love their sins more than the truth have repressed their memories of HIS gospel and the proofs of HIS divinity, Rom 1.

As well, you seem to accept that the only way the gospel can be properly preached is if it leads to conversion but the gospel is also preached to those who fell eternally with Satan to prove to the sinful elect that the non-elect will never, can never hear it as it should be heard with acceptance and contrition and they will never repent and therefor they prove that their banishment to the outer darkness is absolutely necessary.

Blastcat · Post by **Blastcat** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 11:56 am

[Replying to post 60 by 2timothy316]

2timothy316 wrote:
Jehovah God didn't demand His Son to do anything. Jesus came willingly.

Please support the claim.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:00 pm

[Replying to post 62 by Blastcat]

"This is why the Father loves me, because I surrender my life, so that I may receive it again. No man takes it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative. I have authority to surrender it, and I have authority to receive it again. - John 10:17, 18

Blastcat · Post by **Blastcat** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:37 pm

[Replying to post 63 by 2timothy316]

[center]

Crucifixion vs love[/center]

2timothy316 wrote:
"This is why the Father loves me, because I surrender my life, so that I may receive it again. No man takes it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative. I have authority to surrender it, and I have authority to receive it again. - John 10:17, 18

I have two kids.. I would NEVER ask for that kind of mindless obedience or ... submission.. what a disgusting idea.

But then again, I don't happen to live 2000 years ago, either.
I would never ask my kid to "surrender" his life for something that I did.

I'd just go right ahead and forgive the whole world instead... what a RIDICULOUS idea to have my own kid die for some magic... God could have chosen another way.. COME on.. he's just forgiving people for what their their long ago PREDECESSORS did.

The whole premise is disgusting and ridiculous.. from an outsiders point of view, of course. Believers must just love the idea.

Love love love.... now go die on the cross so that people know what religion to believe.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:46 pm

Blastcat wrote:
I have two kids.. I would NEVER ask for that kind of mindless obedience or ... submission.. what a disgusting idea.

Jesus wasn't asked. He surrendered it of his own initiative. So stop saying that he was forced or mindless, what you are saying is false.

Do you teach your children the value of life? I hope so because sounds like you don't.

If one of your children saved countless millions of people of their own initiative but that also meant they lost their life. Would you hate them? Disown them? Would you call them mindless for obeying your teachings to value life? All those people that your child saved how would they view your hate for your child and your calling them mindless and disgusting?

You're displaying a double-standard, unless you teach your kids to be selfish and not to value life. Do you teach them, 'if you see a person about to die and you can save them, don't you dare risk your life for anyone.'?

rikuoamero · Post by **rikuoamero** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 12:55 pm

2timothy316 wrote:
Blastcat wrote:
I have two kids.. I would NEVER ask for that kind of mindless obedience or ... submission.. what a disgusting idea.
Jesus wasn't asked. He surrendered it of his own initiative. So stop saying that he was forced or mindless.

Do you teach your children the value of life? I hope so because sounds like you don't.

If one of your children saved countless millions of people of their own initiative but they meant they lost their live. Would you hate them? Would you call them mindless for obeying your teachings to value life?

You teach a double-standard, unless you teach your kids to be selfish.

The point that you ignore (whether knowingly or unknowingly) in Blastcat's analogy is that he would never require HIS children to sacrifice their lives in order to move HIM to some sort of emotional catharsis, or to accomplish some act that he obviously has the ability to accomplish on his own without requiring that blood be spent.
Please understand this. Jesus sacrifices his life, according to Christianity, in order to fulfill some sort of requirement instituted by God.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:10 pm

rikuoamero wrote:
2timothy316 wrote:
Blastcat wrote:
I have two kids.. I would NEVER ask for that kind of mindless obedience or ... submission.. what a disgusting idea.
Jesus wasn't asked. He surrendered it of his own initiative. So stop saying that he was forced or mindless.

Do you teach your children the value of life? I hope so because sounds like you don't.

If one of your children saved countless millions of people of their own initiative but they meant they lost their live. Would you hate them? Would you call them mindless for obeying your teachings to value life?

You teach a double-standard, unless you teach your kids to be selfish.
The point that you ignore (whether knowingly or unknowingly) in Blastcat's analogy is that he would never require HIS children to sacrifice their lives in order to move HIM to some sort of emotional catharsis, or to accomplish some act that he obviously has the ability to accomplish on his own without requiring that blood be spent.
Please understand this. Jesus sacrifices his life, according to Christianity, in order to fulfill some sort of requirement instituted by God.

The point that you ignore is that there is a justice beyond human justice. That a good ruler doesn't just drop laws when they are an inconvenience. We have human rulers that do that now. Would you prefer that kind of ruler? How would you like it if justice was hit and miss. Someone killed your neighbor's wife. Do you think, 'meh they didn't hurt me so I don't care if that man gets justice or not'.

Plus your fear of death is astounding. Like Jesus is still dead. Gone forever. He wasn't even dead a week. You all seem to think that death is the ultimate force in the universe. You're wrong. Death is nothing to the Almighty. Jesus knew all of this was temporary. But your fear of death is way overrated. Death to God is like being under anesthesia. He can wake a person up at anytime. Not understanding this is from a lack of faith, so really it's to be expected.

Show me one human justice system in the world now or in the past where not enforcing the laws was a good thing. Just one.

Blastcat · Post by **Blastcat** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:14 pm

[Replying to post 65 by 2timothy316]

[center]
Letting your kids die for your own mess.. bad fathering.[/center]

Blastcat wrote: I have two kids.. I would NEVER ask for that kind of mindless obedience or ... submission.. what a disgusting idea.

2timothy316 wrote:
Jesus wasn't asked. He surrendered it of his own initiative.

Confirm this please.

2timothy316 wrote:
So stop saying that he was forced or mindless, what you are saying is false.

Please provide evidence of that.

2timothy316 wrote:
Do you teach your children the value of life? I hope so because sounds like you don't.

I teach my kids to value life.

2timothy316 wrote:
If one of your children saved countless millions of people of their own initiative but that also meant they lost their life.

If I also was an all powerful father.. I'd think up another way... I'd save all those millions AND my kids. I want to teach my kids to value life.. and that also means THEIR OWN.

What do you MEAN they have to lose their lives?
This is GOD were talking about.. nobody has to die unless he wants them to.

And he wants them to because they die.
People die.

God can change that in a blink of an eye.
The idea that an all powerful god ALLOWS his son to die.. is disgusting... it's sick in the head, it's morally unpardonable. It's insane.

It doesn't make sense.
It's very very wrong.

And Christians worship that.
Outsiders might not.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Mon Mar 20, 2017 1:19 pm

[Replying to post 68 by Blastcat]

Here we go again with 50 first dates again.

[Replying to post 62 by Blastcat]

"This is why the Father loves me, because I surrender my life, so that I may receive it again. No man takes it away from me, but I surrender it of my own initiative. I have authority to surrender it, and I have authority to receive it again. - John 10:17, 18

There is your confirmation.

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What kind of Father demands the blood of His Son?

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