Do you have the hope of going to heaven

[JehovahsWitness]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I do not have a hope of going to heaven (when I speak of "heaven" I mean the spiritual abode/realm where God lives).

- Do you personally entertain the hope of going to heaven to spend eternity with God when you die? (if this question is too personal I respect if you do not want to share this information)

- If so, do you believe such a literal spiritual realm exists?

- Do you believe that Jesus is presently in heaven where God exists?



* My question is for people that do believe that a God exists, since I presume that those that do not believe in God do believe he exists anywhere and therefore there is no "heaven" where God is.

[dio9]

I have a more Bodhisattva's view that nobody goes to heaven until all of us go to heaven.

[onewithhim]

We also would like to know which Torah - the books of the OT,
or the Talmud also called Torah.

The meaning of the word "Torah" was expanded over time to include the Writings,(Psalms, Proverbs, etc.) and the works of the Prophets. Yes, the "Old" Testament.

I think our Bluethread uses the term (BT correct me if I'm wrong on this) in an even more expanded way to include the New Testament as well.

When I quoted cnorman on this, I was expanding his intended usage, (he is now a Jew, so would not include the NT) to include New Testament as well.

The Talmud? Not all that familar with it, but I'm sure parts of it are true, and probably much of it. One thing I strongly object to though, is it's prohibition of pronouncing the Name of God, no matter how reverently.

That blanket prohibition is Talmudic and Rabbinic, but not Biblical.

I believe the Talmud also denounces Jesus as an apostate and declares him "anathema"..but I could be wrong about that. I would object to that part of the Talmud as well.

I have always understood it to be true that the "Torah" was only the 5 books of Moses. Jeremiah's denunciation of wicked Israel would not have been something the Jews would readily embrace, for example.

I wholeheartedly agree with your thoughts on the prohibition of God's name, that it is Rabbinic and certainly not Biblical.

[onewithhim]

I have a more Bodhisattva's view that nobody goes to heaven until all of us go to heaven.

Bodhisattva doesn't seem to understand what the going to heaven business is all about. No human was intended to go to heaven when they were first created. It's astounding that no one realizes that simple fact!

Isaiah 45:18 clearly states, also, that the earth was made to be inhabited. There is no hint at all in the creation account that God was going to bring humans eventually to heaven. NOTHING about that!

It was only after our first human parents rebelled that any talk of the supernatural realm became part of the Bible account, indicating that that realm would be involved with humans, pertaining to their salvation from death. Only after mankind had fallen. If we had not fallen, there would be no need of a Savior sent from heaven.

But, unfortunately, Adam chose to be independent from God, and all of his descendants have suffered because of that choice. Therefore God arranged for a Savior from heaven. Jehovah also arranged for there to be co-rulers with the Messiah, from Earth, to help with guiding all of the billions of humanity that would be living on the earth after all wickedness was removed from it. It is just a privilege for 144,000 people to help the rest of humanity get things back in order. By far the majority of mankind will remain on the earth, where we were created to live in the first place.

The co-rulers with Christ will reign with him for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4b,6)

Then:

"The wicked man will be no more....But the humble will inherit the land and will delight themselves in abundant prosperity....The righteous will inherit the land and dwell in it forever." (Psalm 37:10,11,29, NASB)


.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 79 by Elijah John]

[center]
Different kinds of truth[/center]

By what mechanism did you stop believing in Santa?

Probably when my parents fessed up and surrendered to my growing skepticism. Why don't you ask me "by what mechanism" caused me to stop believing that "Jesus was God"?

So, I didn't ask how you acquired your Santa beliefs.. Lets say you got that idea from someone else. Someone ( possibly even your parents ) told you that Santa was a deal. Being gullible, you believed.

You stopped believing when someone told you NOT to, because it was a great big lie.
Seems to me that your mechanism was "by way of other people telling you what's what"

Is that the same mechanism that you would use now as a grown up?

By what mechanism did you stop believing that Jesus was God?
By what mechanism do you believe anything at all?

I would guess it's not by AUTHORITY.. right?
You at least think for yourself now a days?

So, what mechanism do you, as an adult, use to figure out what to believe or not?

Do you understand the difference between empirical/journalistic truth vs. poetic truth?

I think so.. but maybe you should explain that so I really know what you are talking about.

If not, it is hard to explain poetic truth to an empiricist/skeptic.

Just to be certain, explain it please. Assume I know nothing.
I have my own understanding, but that won't help me at all understand what your ideas are.

BY the way.. I wonder why you think it's so hard to explain that to me.
I kinda get the idea of art. Empiricists don't seem to have trouble with that.

Skepticism has NOTHING to say negative about art.
Art is great.

I'm an amateur photographer, painter, graphic artist, musician, and interior designer. I sometimes write pretty stinky poetry, try my hand at humor, always try new philosophical ideas out.. I'd call myself pretty creative. I even dance and engage in my own brand of Tai Chi with a stick. I call that "Tai Chi with a stick".

Yeah, I'm not always so creative.


I love art,
Explain away.

I might be an empiricist ( I do demand empirical evidence for empirical claims )
I AM a skeptic.

I don't really think I'll have much trouble understanding aesthetics. I IMMERSE myself with aesthetics each and every day.. I'm kindof an artist that way.. AMONG many other things.

Actually, it is you who inserted the "perfectly" part in the "Torah is true" quote that I used.

Yeah.. sorry about that.
I usually avoid using absolutes.

I slipped up.
Forget about absolutes.. we can't ever prove those.
I guess I let a bit of empty rhetoric slip into what I was writing.

Call that a mistake.
I usually ATTACK people who talk in absolutes, and here I am doing that.

Great call.
Thanks.

Let me try explain though. I believe the Torah, (and the rest of the Bible, by extension) is thematically true, poetically true, and true in essence. But not in every literal detail.

Thanks for the attempt.
It's a good start.

So.. poetic truth... True in "essence" ( I can't guess what you mean by "essence" )

I'm a BIG TIME appreciator of aesthetics:

I look at a sky... at a baby, a pile of excrement.. they are all "true" in some poetic sense.. that's not really saying much, though, as EVERYTHING on the planet is like that for me. Even the Torah would be.

Because they all EXIST.

Are you saying that you can make sense out of an old bunch of poetry?
I'd have to agree with you because so can I.

I can and DO make all kinds of creative connections.
I even sometimes, try to make my own crazy poetic connections.

They are very entertaining.
So.. you find yourself being able to be inspired by poetry.

Great.
I applaud that ability.. a lot of people I know can't.

I think you mean ... METAPHORICALLY true... just like the Mona Lisa is true.. and the Harry Potter books are true... and it sure is true that a dirty diaper is a great Truth of life. INHALE that life force. Take in the TRUTH...

Take a whiff

It's very strong.
It's very true.

A freshly removed dirty diaper is one of the truest kinds of experiences a father will ever have. Honest. One of the mostest. Especially the diapers with the green poo. WOO.. now if that's not true, nothing is true.

I also believe in it's ethics, as enumerated in the Ten Commandments.

Hmm those out of date ideas?
Well.. some of them are ok.. don't murder people seems like a good idea...

All that silly "you better not have any other gods" is pathetic morality.
That's not morality at all.. it's religious injunction.

Oh, by the way, you forgot to answer the question.. just how true ( literally and poetically ) IS the Torah?

Is it just a work of art to you? Numbers don't really apply?
Like the Mona Lisa? It's true to some and not to others?

It's nice.. it "speaks to you"?
Like an abstract painting but not another one?


Let's talk about the truth of the Torah a bit..
It's a bit of a different subject than the usual "Truth" people talk about in here.

A few kinds of truths we are discussing:

1. Literal, public objective truth of the Torah.
2. Subjective, personal, aesthetic truth of the Torah.
3. Moral truth of the Torah.
4. Gosh.. I had another one.. and then I just forgot.. I'll hate myself later because it will come back. So let's just go with the first 3. Maybe I only HAD the three. I'm sure that I had another one though.. this is going to eat me alive.

____________

Question:

• 
  
  Is the Torah more poetically true than ... anything else?
  
  

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[OnceConvinced]

Well, I hope you have found a measure of peace anyway.

Definitely have. Sad though to think that I will not live forever. That's still a bummer for me now.

I believe in the Bible as inspired by God but not perfect. Nothing that humans are involved in can be perfect. So it has contradictions (which, IMO, are irrelevant), more bloodbaths than, IMO, my God Jehovah would ever order, and some scientific boo-boos. I still believe in God and that he inspired the Bible, written by 4 or 5 dozen men, men who undoubtedly rubbed off some of their own tendencies on their writing down of the main ideas. Embellishment. God says, "Write down that the final end of the wicked is going to be unpleasant." The prophet writes down, "There is going to be BLOOD UP TO THE BRIDLE OF THE HORSES!" Come on....let's give Jehovah the benefit of the doubt. He inspired certain ideas (what I consider truths), and those ideas got written down over the course of several centuries by many men. So they added their own stuff here and there. Why did Moses write about "a bridegroom of blood"? Makes no sense to anybody.

That is the best I could hope for. To believe that the bible writers wrote via inspiration and that it's not all meant to be taken as accurate or "God breathed". I would have to see the bible as man's word, not God's word.

But we have the main thoughts about why we are here, how we got here, who God is, why we have suffering and death, what God's plan was to redeem mankind from dying, and what the plan is for the earth. It's all there.

But we can't even know that is accurate. There are way too many problems with all that too. For instance, now I do not see much sense in Jesus sacrifice at all. I don't really see how it is needed or why God needed to go to those extreme lengths. The bible gives conflicting information and info that just doesn't add up in reality. Of course I have discussed my thoughts on this in other threads so don't want to get into that here.

Anyway, I sympathize with your conundrum, as I know how sad and dark life can be.
.

Life is definitely not sad and dark for me. I am enjoying life now way more as an atheist than I ever did as a Christian. The only sad thing is that I believe I won't be living for all eternity. But then again, I don't believe you or any other Christian will be either.

[OnceConvinced]

Jesus said, 'if you seek me with your whole heart you will fond me'.

Which I did. With my WHOLE heart. And I believed I HAD found him. Believed it without a shadow of a doubt for over 30 years. However now I have found that it was nothing but a fantasy. Seeking god with your whole heart just doesn't work. I found out that the hard way. There are many others like me who have also sought with their whole heart and not found either. To me now you are talking about a fantasy.

The Bible also speaks of 'a still small voice'.

Yep, I know that small voice. It always seems so profound and godly doesn't it? It always makes sense and it always seems to be wise and true. I still get that exact same small voice even now as an atheist, it's just I know now it's not God.

It is not something we can demand but seeking in humility with the whole heart and allowing God to reveal Himself according to His good pleasure.

Yep. Been there done that. What you say doesn't work. They say the definition of madness is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. I know for a fact it doesn't work. I stand here as evidence of that. A person who worshiped God with his whole heart in humility. Someone who followed his teachings and continued to worship him and obey him (in humility with my whole heart) for many years. I wonder if you have been faithful for as long as what I was?

The ball is totally in God's court now, if he truly exists, which I very much doubt. I am not going to waste any more of my precious life pursuing religious fantasies. If God is real and he loves me, then it's up to him to show it to me just as I would expect to have to show my love for those I claim to love. Love is not just a statement it's an action. Let's see God take some action instead of just watching and doing nothing. If he really did exist and loved me as much as the bible claims, he would know exactly what little it would take to convince me and he would do it because of his love for me and because he knows how genuine I was in serving him and worshiping him for all those years of my life.

You may claim I'm making demands of God, but I'm not expecting anything more than what he does to show you Christians he exists. After all, isn't God constantly answering your prayers, blessing you, helping you in many different ways? Jumping through hoops for you? He is, right? He's active in your life giving you more and more evidence of his existence and his power every day? I'm not asking for much. Just one thing that proves he exists and wants me to acknowledge him. Of course he would know exactly what is needed to help be believe in him again, wouldn't he?

He could have easily stopped me from becoming a non-believer. He could have given me a fresh touch of his presence or even have another Christian give me a call, but he never did anything like that. Even when I was on my knees begging him and shedding tears, desperate for some help from him. Desperate to hold onto the shreds of my faith. Oh I cried out over and over with my whole heart and in total humility , but I didn't even get so much as a touch from him. And after all those years of diligently serving him. Is it any surprise I'm no longer a believer?

If you have been a faithful follower for at least 30 years, then you can talk to me about seeking God with humility and a whole heart. when you have been in it for that long and you reach the verge of losing your faith and coming to the conclusion that God is not real... then come back from that, then we can talk about seeking God with humility and a whole heart. Until then, talk is cheap.

[Claire Evans]

Why do you believe it is impossible to go back to believing?

Well it would be kind of like going back to a belief in Santa Claus. Once you know it can't be true how can you twist your own arm behind your back to force yourself to believe it again?

With Santa, the only way I would be able to believe in him again, is if the real Santa turned up one day on a sleigh on my roof with gifts and somehow got down my very small chimney to see me. Or something like that.

Likewise, for me to believe in God I think it would take some massive miracle, most likely god himself coming to me and revealing himself to me. Even then I could never go back to believing the bible was the word of God. It just can't possibly be. I would believe in God and anything he revealed to me, but could not possibly go back to the flawed bible and believe it as I once did. I know too much now. You can't just ignore what you know.

How can you tell 100% that God can't be true? Santa Claus is not a supernatural being. We cannot access Him through prayer. People make the mistake of thinking proof of God should come from miracles in the skies. That is not a new thing.

Matthew 27:39-40

…39And those who passed by heaped abuse on Him, shaking their heads, 40and saying, “You who are going to destroy the temple and rebuild it in three days, save Yourself! If You are the Son of God, come down from the cross!�

The other mistake you have made is that just because you have been disillusioned with the Bible, then suddenly that makes God fictitious. I know too much about how corrupted the OT is. In fact, it's enough to destroy someone's faith. Yet I had the foundation. Once you have made spiritual contact with God, there is no going back.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 87 by Claire Evans]



[center]The probability that the God Hypothesis is true[/center]

How can you tell 100% that God can't be true?

Nobody can.

____________

Question:

• 
  
  How true is the God hypothesis and how did you establish that probability?
  
  

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[onewithhim]

I do not see much sense in Jesus sacrifice at all. I don't really see how it is needed or why God needed to go to those extreme lengths. The bible gives conflicting information and info that just doesn't add up in reality. Of course I have discussed my thoughts on this in other threads so don't want to get into that here.

Yes. I have explained it, also, on other threads. It makes sense, as I said, if we look at it not just as a religious story but as something real that happened because of certain natural laws. DNA is a big part of that, IMHO.


But anyway, have a pleasant day.

[Blastcat]

Yes. I have explained it, also, on other threads. It makes sense, as I said, if we look at it not just as a religious story but as something real that happened because of certain natural laws. DNA is a big part of that, IMHO.

Could you perhaps expand how DNA comes into the picture?