Assessing why a Black man in America would be a Christian

[BayAreaTodd827]

Have I been bamboozled into believing that the Christian faith is beneficial to me? Why have I chosen to be Christian in a "Christian nation" that historically has sought to deprive my race and gender of freedom and dignity?

I have lived some decades. I have seen people, in the name of Christianity, trample over others for their own self-serving purposes. I have witnessed men, by persuasive oratory, fool others into believing that such oratorical skill somehow makes them an authority and proprietor of truth and righteousness. I have seen this game's inevitable result - lies exposed.

I have observed the game played out time and again. Sometimes it is played by those who enter the Christian faith minded to play. At other times, it is played by those who entered the faith with a sincere passion for God, but at some point they became disillusioned by it all and decide to simply go along with the play-book because this is what the majority seem to be doing - feigning perfection.

With my education and exposure to all of this, isnt it about time that I give up the Christian mantle? After all, I am a pretty-well informed and educated person. I completed undergrad and graduate school, and I've traveled a bit. Again, I also know the games people play (whether I choose to indulge in them or not).

Am I not perpetuating the fraud by endorsing a belief system that is replete with hypocrites and deceivers?

The uncomplicated response to the last question posed is, NO! I stand by Christianity based on its own merit, not based on the actions of people who claim to be followers.

The not so easy related question might be, how, with my knowledge, understanding, and experience, am I going to convince others (particularly someone who has been jaded by what theyve seen by others), to become a Christian?

Another related question is why even bother to try?

In terms of the "why bother" question, it is because I am duty bound as a Christian to promote the Christian faith. This is part of being "faithful". Whether I succeed is outside my control. My love for God and His Son/my savior compels me to try.

It is my position that the Christian faith (based on the scriptural standard contained in what is commonly called the Bible) is the most beneficial for mankind. Bar none. It is beneficial in this life as well as for its promise of eternal life. This applies to me as an African-American and all mankind.

I invite dialogue on the topic. I am not seeking to judge anyone. I readily admit that in my dialogue my aim will be to seek to defend the faith I hold, AND, to encourage whomever might read this to become as I am - A Christian. Feel free to respond publicly or privately. I'll respond in kind.

I look forward to mutually respectful and non-judgmental dialogue.

A prelude to my thoughts...

The apostle Paul communicated a fundamental truth about the expectation and need for every able-bodied person to grow up and make decision in accordance with this growth. In 1 Corinthians 13:11 (King James Version) he says " When I was a child I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child, but when I became a man I put away childish things.

In short, while I may have grown up in and around the Christian faith (and of course was influenced by this upbringing) I am not a Christian today simply as a result of that influence. I have lived a life where I have seen and heard many things. The culmination of this has lead me to choosing Jesus Christ. A simple but fully excercised choice.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 23 by JehovahsWitness]

Good morning, JW/Jehovah's Witness,

Again, I want to keep this simple. This current discussion revolves around my expressing to you that I do not subscribe to the Watctowef narrative which states that our current physical earth will not have an end. You cited the word "for ever" in Psalms 37:29. I maintain my stated position.

I agree with you that the word "everlasting" in Gen 17:13 did not necessarily mean without end. Of course physical circumcision is not necessary for the Christian. My point is just as Gen 17:13 use of the word "everlasting" does it mean "without end", the same could (and does) apply to Psalms 37:29 use of the word "for ever". Question, does the following apply to Christians (note the words "for ever"). There are many other similar examples we can explore.

Leviticus 23:30-31 KJV
[30] And whatsoever soul it be that doeth any work in that same day, the same soul will I destroy from among his people. [31] Ye shall do no manner of work: it shall be a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.

My friend, again, I do not subscribe to the Watchtower doctrine on this issue. I believe you are in error. I believe your interpretation of scripture in this regard is askew.

Nor do you have to subscribe to that doctrine. In fact we are not showing you anything from the Watchtower but from a Concordance. Which is not about interpretation but accurate translation. What is more important accuracy or belief? If you are seeking truth then you would seek accuracy and know that the word 'forever' in Psalms 37:29 is not the same as in Genesis 17:13.

Is Psalms the world is l-a
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/5703.htm
There are only 53 occurrences of this word.

Here are the scriptures in which they occur. Many times it is translated as 'forever and ever'. From the concordance "From adah; properly, a (peremptory) terminus, i.e. (by implication) duration, in the sense of advance or perpetuity (substantially as a noun, either with or without a preposition) -- eternity, ever."
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_5703.htm

This not to be confused with the word in Genesis.

In Genesis the word is -w-lm.
http://biblehub.com/text/genesis/17-13.htm
There are 438 Occurrences of this word and it is never translated as 'forever and ever'.

Here are the scriptures in which this word occurs. From the concordance, "from alam; properly, concealed, i.e. The vanishing point; generally, time out of mind (past or future)." It means a time that can't be seen where something will end or when something began.
http://biblehub.com/hebrew/strongs_5769.htm

So ours is not an interpretation of our own making but a close look at the accurate meaning of the translation from Hebrew to English. Of course you are free of course to reject Strong's Exhaustive Concordance which is not a Watchtower publication BTW but used by many scholars for translation from Hebrew into English and great tool if translation accuracy is a person's goal.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 24 by BayAreaTodd827]

Do you believe the earth is ever mentioned in relation to the reward for the righteous? If so what do you think it means?

[BayAreaTodd827]

[Replying to post 25 by 2timothy316]

Hello, 2Tim...

I was not challenging your interpretation of the term "fore ever". I challenge your interpretation of the Psalm 37:29 passage to mean this present earth will have no end. Your exegesis of the word is quite impressive. But, an abundance of data about one word does nothing to support the watchtower's conclusion about this earth.

I cited other renderings of the phrase "for ever" to show that sometimes it is necessary to look deeper into God's word to get the answer/gain understanding. You've shown in your response that my point is valid. I appreciate your efforts.

As I said earlier, I've met many very nice respectable JWs. Some of whom I'd call friend. Nevertheless, my allegiance is to God. My focus is to be with Him eternally one day. I believe that destination to be skyward. If you've determined this earth is your final place of abode, then that is your choice. I do not believe the position is supported by scripture.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 13 by BayAreaTodd827]

The curse upon Ham, Noah's black son, although now vehemently denied by Jews and Christians, was the justification Jews and Christians had for enslaving South Africans.

Yes, yes, I know they all deny it now that it is unpopular, but between 1500 and 1900, it was very popular as a justification for enslaving blacks.

V/R

Don't blame me, it's not my religion.

[2timothy316]

[Replying to post 27 by BayAreaTodd827]

I see then that accuracy is not your aim. If that is your choice then so be it. However, it is an error to think that JWs came up with this idea that Earth is eternal. There is exegesis and eisegesis. Witnesses follow exegesis and we do not change words to fit a doctrine. We strive to learn exactly what the Bible says and that becomes our doctrine.

Now that you have decided that forever doesn't mean forever does that mean that God's throne isn't forever?

Psalm 45:6 (ASV) "Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever."

Is God's word not forever either?

Psalm 119:89 "Forever, O Jehovah, Your word will remain in the heavens."

Help me understand and please break down the above as to why God's throne and word isn't really forever and how you know.

[BayAreaTodd827]

[Replying to post 26 by JehovahsWitness]

Hello, Jehov....W.

Yes, the earth was given to Adam and Eve to have dominion over (Gen 1:26). At that time they were righteous. I also believe Abraham's physical seed received a promise related to a particular parcel of the earth, because of Abraham's righteousness (Gen 17:8).

I do not believe Christ taught his followers to be fixated on this earth as a final place of abode, but rather to be focused on being with him (i.e John 14:3). I don't believe the number is limited to 144K. Again, the notion is not supported by the whole of scripture.

I want to encourage people to follow Jesus the Christ. I believe the Father sent His Son for the purpose of giving mankind a chance to live eternally (Jhn 3:16). I further believe this s the ONLY avenue to avoid eternal separation from God. I'm focused on that, not this earth.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 26 by JehovahsWitness]Yes, the earth was given to Adam and Eve to have dominion over (Gen 1:26). At that time they were righteous. I also believe Abraham's physical seed received a promise related to a particular parcel of the earth, because of Abraham's righteousness (Gen 17:8).

And what do you make of the promises that seem to suggest the wider application of the righteous having some kind of reward related to this planet.



Isaiah 11: 9
There shall be no harm or ruin on all my holy mountain; for THE EARTH shall be filled with knowledge of the LORD, as water covers the sea." -- New American Bible

Ecclesiastes 1: 4
"One generation goes and another comes; but THE EARTH is forever*."

Proverbs 2 v 21, 22 Douay-Rheims Bible
"For they that are upright shall dwell in THE EARTH, and the simple shall continue in it. But the wicked shall be cut off from the earth, and the transgressors shall be rooted out of it. -- King James Bible

Matthew 5: 5 American Standard Version
"Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit THE EARTH."

Matthew 6 v 10 Young's Literal Translationn "Thy reign come: Thy will come to pass, as in heaven also on THE EARTH."

Isaiah 11: 9 " They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because THE EARTH will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea." NWT

Psalms 115:16 "The heavens belong to the LORD, but he has given THE EARTH to all humanity." New Living Translation (2007)

PSALMS 72v8
May he also rule from sea to sea And from the River to the ends of THE EARTH. New American Standard Bible (1995)

Psalms 37:29 "The righteous themselves will possess THE EARTH, and they will reside forever upon it."

Psalms 37:11:
"But the meek ones themselves will possess THE EARTH, and they will indeed find their exquisite delight in the abundance of peace."

[JehovahsWitness]

I also believe Abraham's physical seed received a promise related to a particular parcel of the earth, because of Abraham's righteousness (Gen 17:8).

- How are "all the nations of the earth shall be blessed" by means of Abraham's seed?

- How and in what sense will the "meek inherit the earth"?

- Why did Jesus mention the earth when he taught his followers to pray "Thy will be done on EARTH"?

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 1 by BayAreaTodd827]



[center]

A very excellent debut[/center]

Have I been bamboozled into believing that the Christian faith is beneficial to me? Why have I chosen to be Christian in a "Christian nation" that historically has sought to deprive my race and gender of freedom and dignity?

I'd say.. you didn't have much choice in the matter. We all wanna please mama.
I'd also say your mama probably didn't have any choice in the matter, either.. and so on UNTIL we get to your slave ancestors. Did they have much of a choice in the matter?

I don't know how a BLACK PERSON living in America can worship the god of the oppressor. That's my visceral take on the matter. I am not sure that I could stomach that.

I'd at the very LEAST be an atheist. ( which I am.. lol .. a coincidence )

I have lived some decades. I have seen people, in the name of Christianity, trample over others for their own self-serving purposes. I have witnessed men, by persuasive oratory, fool others into believing that such oratorical skill somehow makes them an authority and proprietor of truth and righteousness. I have seen this game's inevitable result - lies exposed.

I agree.

People have faults.

I think that Christianity itself has been used to promote all kinds of atrocities in the past. Slavery comes to mind.

With my education and exposure to all of this, isnt it about time that I give up the Christian mantle? After all, I am a pretty-well informed and educated person. I completed undergrad and graduate school, and I've traveled a bit. Again, I also know the games people play (whether I choose to indulge in them or not).

I'd say that it's about time that you really look into your motivations for believing.

Am I not perpetuating the fraud by endorsing a belief system that is replete with hypocrites and deceivers?

I'd say yes, of course you are.

But it's not just because of their ACTIONS that the belief should be questioned.
What about the truth of the belief itself?

Shouldn't be that questioned, too?
But religious hypocrisy sure is a stumbling block.


If a religion is promoted as a MORAL system, Christianity is a failure by that standard.



I think that might be one of the factors ( not all ) that got me started doubting what these religious authorities were trying to sell me. Hypocrisy doesn't seem to FIT with the belief system.

But there we have it.. all over the place in that religion.
What's up with that?

The uncomplicated response to the last question posed is, NO! I stand by Christianity based on its own merit, not based on the actions of people who claim to be followers.

You are perceptive about how humans behave.. up to a point. I think you can go way further.

I'm not right now convinced that you are looking at all of your motivations for believing this stuff.

Maybe you can tell us about all of that "merit" it has.

The not so easy related question might be, how, with my knowledge, understanding, and experience, am I going to convince others (particularly someone who has been jaded by what theyve seen by others), to become a Christian?

Oh, that's pretty easy.
I'd target the vulnerable people, like kids and drug addicts.

Oh, and never forget the street people.
I recommend preaching on the streets for that.

Another related question is why even bother to try?

I think that if we believe something, we should bother.
I really believe that discussions are vital.

Let's talk about things.
Let's reason this out, shall we?

In terms of the "why bother" question, it is because I am duty bound as a Christian to promote the Christian faith. This is part of being "faithful".

UGh.

Pretty bad reason.
Following orders, are you?

You aren't really here because you like to reason things out in order to figure out what true and what's bogus? Are you being coerced by your religious beliefs to do this?

Not much choice in the matter?

If so.. UGH, and double UGH.
That doesn't excite me much.

Maybe you can work on your motivation for your religious discussions a bit more.
That one isn't really compelling to me..

I do this because I want to LEARN, to exercise my COMPASSION, to perhaps even teach by way of building agreements as much as I can. I have to say, that I learn WAY more than I ever teach. Lol. Just sayin'

Whether I succeed is outside my control. My love for God and His Son/my savior compels me to try.

I agree.

You can try to convince someone, but the acceptance of your ideas belongs to the other guy. You can call it "God" doing that, if you like.

But, for example, if you want to convince THIS CAT... you have to somehow make sense and then I will decide. Simple as that.

Do your very best.
The rest would be up to me ( you can say it's up to God, if you like )

It is my position that the Christian faith (based on the scriptural standard contained in what is commonly called the Bible) is the most beneficial for mankind. Bar none. It is beneficial in this life as well as for its promise of eternal life. This applies to me as an African-American and all mankind.

Quite the claim.
"Bar none", you say?

I hate absolute claims like that.. one counter-example breaks that house of cards in one swell swoop. I always suggest making much more MODEST claims.

You just dug yourself a bit of a hole.. Get out before it gets too deep for you to get out of by yourself. Lucky, I'm here to give you a hand to get out, but I might not always be around.

I invite dialogue on the topic.

That's EXCELLENT.
We need more of this.

I am not seeking to judge anyone.

Neither am I.
But mark my words, I WILL judge your ideas.

I hope that's what you are here for.
Too many people come in here just to preach.

Bleh.. I hate preaching.

I readily admit that in my dialogue my aim will be to seek to defend the faith I hold, AND, to encourage whomever might read this to become as I am - A Christian. Feel free to respond publicly or privately. I'll respond in kind.

Oh right there.. FANTASTIC.
It's been a few YEARS since we got an actual defender of the faith in here.

I can't wait to have long productive discussions with you..
You defend, I attack, right?

I love it..
BOOYAH.

I look forward to mutually respectful and non-judgmental dialogue.

Just to be clear.. not going to judge anyone.
BUT HOLD ON TO YOUR HATS i judge their ideas.

Right folks?

The apostle Paul communicated a fundamental truth about the expectation and need for every able-bodied person to grow up and make decision in accordance with this growth. In 1 Corinthians 13:11 (King James Version) he says " When I was a child I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child, but when I became a man I put away childish things.

That's an excellent place to start.
Bravo for picking that.

Let's put childish things away for a while.
I can and will play later.

In short, while I may have grown up in and around the Christian faith (and of course was influenced by this upbringing) I am not a Christian today simply as a result of that influence.

Fair enough.

I have lived a life where I have seen and heard many things. The culmination of this has lead me to choosing Jesus Christ. A simple but fully excercised choice.

Great.
That's a perfectly respectable position to hold.

Now prove it.
________________

BY THE WAY:

I really don't see how your race should affect your epistemic investigation.
________________

[BayAreaTodd827]

[Replying to post 28 by Willum]

Hello, Willum.

Yes, there are many "justifications" people use. As a person matures he/she should hopefully learn how to distinguish truth from lies. This is not always easy.

In response to your "Ham" matter, I would ask three questions:

1. Where does scripture say Ham was Noah's "black son"? and
2. Does the passage say Ham was cursed by his father Noah or was it someone else who was cursed? Gen 9:24-26.
3. What does Christ teach on the matter? I'm a Christian.