A Christian member of our forum recently pointed out a bible contradiction for all to see:
This verse was presented first:
Numbers 23:19 "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."
The Christian then attempted to trump it with a contradictory scripture where God DOES change his mind, thus exposing a blatant bible contradiction:
Jeremiah 18:8 "But if that nation about which I spoke turns from its evil way, I'll change my mind about the disaster that I had planned for it."
Here are further verses that show God changing his mind:
Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.
Amos 7:3
The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.
Jeremiah 18:10
if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. (wow this is a verse where God says he will break his promise!!)
So questions for debate:
Does Got change his mind?
If he does change his mind, how do we know he hasn't changed his mind about much of what he expected from us in the New Testament?
If he does change his mind, how can we really know what he wants of us today?
Does God change his mind?
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Does God change his mind?
Post #1Society and its morals evolve and will continue to evolve. The bible however remains the same and just requires more and more apologetics and claims of "metaphors" and "symbolism" to justify it.
Prayer is like rubbing an old bottle and hoping that a genie will pop out and grant you three wishes.
There is much about this world that is mind boggling and impressive, but I see no need whatsoever to put it down to magical super powered beings.
Check out my website: Recker's World
Re: Does God change his mind?
Post #352[Replying to post 345 by tam]
God, as is any living personality, is a synthesis of both consistency and change. The fact that there is an immutable or absolute side or nature to God does not negate change in other key aspects (relative nature). In fact, the two go together. A human example may help. As you may have noted in my earlier posts, I am a life-long train buff (absolute nature). But it that is all you say about me, you have overlooked me in the concrete (relative nature). I am a much different train buff now that I have had considerable experience actually operating and maintaining a historic steam locomotive than I was when I was 15 and had no such experience. The same principle holds with God. For example, if you are holding wit the notion that God's forgiveness is conditional, depends on the fact a sinner repents, then you have God before the sinner repents, thereby being then unforgiving and unmerciful to the sinner, and then you have God after the sinner repents, now changing and being merciful and forgiving to that sinner. The fact there is a basic consistency in the process of change does not negate the reality of change taking place.
God, as is any living personality, is a synthesis of both consistency and change. The fact that there is an immutable or absolute side or nature to God does not negate change in other key aspects (relative nature). In fact, the two go together. A human example may help. As you may have noted in my earlier posts, I am a life-long train buff (absolute nature). But it that is all you say about me, you have overlooked me in the concrete (relative nature). I am a much different train buff now that I have had considerable experience actually operating and maintaining a historic steam locomotive than I was when I was 15 and had no such experience. The same principle holds with God. For example, if you are holding wit the notion that God's forgiveness is conditional, depends on the fact a sinner repents, then you have God before the sinner repents, thereby being then unforgiving and unmerciful to the sinner, and then you have God after the sinner repents, now changing and being merciful and forgiving to that sinner. The fact there is a basic consistency in the process of change does not negate the reality of change taking place.
Post #353
[Replying to post 349 by dio9]
OK, now it get it. Thanks. it seems we are both on the same wave length, no?
OK, now it get it. Thanks. it seems we are both on the same wave length, no?
Re: Does God change his mind?
Post #355[center]
Not changing implies not doing any changes at all.[/center]
You either DON'T change at all or you DO change.
If you change just a little bit?
You change.
Not changing implies not doing any changes at all.[/center]
Hoghead1, mark this day for we do not agree on this one.hoghead1 wrote:
God, as is any living personality, is a synthesis of both consistency and change. The fact that there is an immutable or absolute side or nature to God does not negate change in other key aspects (relative nature).
You either DON'T change at all or you DO change.
If you change just a little bit?
You change.
Re: Does God change his mind?
Post #356[Replying to post 355 by Blastcat]
Yes, I know. We went through all that before. Just because we agree n one point does not mean we agree on all.
Yes, I know. We went through all that before. Just because we agree n one point does not mean we agree on all.
Re: Does God change his mind?
Post #357[Replying to post 350 by hoghead1]
Hoghead - you contend that I am making claims about infinity and using tried and true methods to reach conclusions. I am saying that when people first dealt with the notion of infinity they did use common sense methods and got wrong answers because common sense methods did not apply. The answers were wrong because they led to obvious contradictions or absurdities. I used this NOT to analyse infinity, but to show the dangers of reaching conclusions about infinity. This serves to show the dangers of using common sense to make conclusions about God.
As for your use of assumptions: you constantly describe what your God does, how he has empathy, how transcendent he is etc. It is bad enough to reach God by human logic but surely a bridge too far to use this conclusion to deduce properties of God.
To emerge from all this to a discussion on whether God changes his mind is fantasy. The words "change" and "mind" don't begin to function in discussions on a hypothetical God. We must reduce him to his Biblical human self to get any meaning.
Hoghead - you contend that I am making claims about infinity and using tried and true methods to reach conclusions. I am saying that when people first dealt with the notion of infinity they did use common sense methods and got wrong answers because common sense methods did not apply. The answers were wrong because they led to obvious contradictions or absurdities. I used this NOT to analyse infinity, but to show the dangers of reaching conclusions about infinity. This serves to show the dangers of using common sense to make conclusions about God.
As for your use of assumptions: you constantly describe what your God does, how he has empathy, how transcendent he is etc. It is bad enough to reach God by human logic but surely a bridge too far to use this conclusion to deduce properties of God.
To emerge from all this to a discussion on whether God changes his mind is fantasy. The words "change" and "mind" don't begin to function in discussions on a hypothetical God. We must reduce him to his Biblical human self to get any meaning.
Re: Does God change his mind?
Post #358[Replying to post 357 by marco]
Wait a sec. What "common-sense methods"? What "wrong conclusions"? My point is that the logic of perfection in classical theism is a lopsided concept of perfection, both for God and for humans as well.
What you are doing seems akin to the traditional via negative, the notion that no creaturely, finite adjectives can be applied to God, which is sourced in the logic of perfection in classical theism. My criticism is that this renders the whole concept of God meaningless, as well as insisting on a lopsided, unrealistic concept of perfection, among others. So actually I am claiming your whole method is wrong, what's generating contradictions in the doctrine of God.
In previous posts, I have provided ample rationale for the claims I make about God's nature. If you want to offer rebuttals, you are welcome to do so. But then you need to go through my arguments, one by one, which you have yet to do.
Wait a sec. What "common-sense methods"? What "wrong conclusions"? My point is that the logic of perfection in classical theism is a lopsided concept of perfection, both for God and for humans as well.
What you are doing seems akin to the traditional via negative, the notion that no creaturely, finite adjectives can be applied to God, which is sourced in the logic of perfection in classical theism. My criticism is that this renders the whole concept of God meaningless, as well as insisting on a lopsided, unrealistic concept of perfection, among others. So actually I am claiming your whole method is wrong, what's generating contradictions in the doctrine of God.
In previous posts, I have provided ample rationale for the claims I make about God's nature. If you want to offer rebuttals, you are welcome to do so. But then you need to go through my arguments, one by one, which you have yet to do.
Re: Does God change his mind?
Post #359[Replying to post 358 by hoghead1]
I dare ya
Im not buying this for a second.
Explain to all of PLEASE your great definition of "perfection" so we can take a look see.hoghead1 wrote:
My point is that the logic of perfection in classical theism is a lopsided concept of perfection, both for God and for humans as well.
I dare ya
Im not buying this for a second.
Re: Does God change his mind?
Post #360[Replying to post 359 by Blastcat]
We already went through al that in along discussion we had back in January, however.
We already went through al that in along discussion we had back in January, however.
