Do you have the hope of going to heaven

[JehovahsWitness]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I do not have a hope of going to heaven (when I speak of "heaven" I mean the spiritual abode/realm where God lives).

- Do you personally entertain the hope of going to heaven to spend eternity with God when you die? (if this question is too personal I respect if you do not want to share this information)

- If so, do you believe such a literal spiritual realm exists?

- Do you believe that Jesus is presently in heaven where God exists?



* My question is for people that do believe that a God exists, since I presume that those that do not believe in God do believe he exists anywhere and therefore there is no "heaven" where God is.

[OnceConvinced]

It might be a problem because Jehovah is NOT Jesus.

Well like I have pointed out earlier, a person who believes in the trinity believes that Jesus is part of Jehovah. Thus if he's praying to Jesus, he's praying to Jehovah. That is his full intention. Jehovah would know the heart and the intents of the person praying and would be well aware that even though the person is saying Jesus, that he's trying to communicate with Jehovah himself.

We as humans are normally not as petty as what you imply Jehovah is. When someone uses the wrong name for us or even maybe a name we don't like, do we then just ignore the person? Do we demonise them and say "oh you're evil, you aren't calling me by my real name.".

For instance:

I have a surname which regularly gets confused with another name, which really sounds completely different but people still somehow manage to screw it up. I even get mail sent to me with this false surname. However I am not so stupid as to throw the letter away without reading it. I know that the writer is actually intending it to be me, so I open the letter and read it.

My surname also used to get the same nickname wherever I went. I hated it as a child, but yet every school I went to, it would be only a few days later when the nickname started to be used and I'd be stuck with it. Everybody would be using it. However did I ignore people who used it? No, because I know they were referring to me.

Even if I pray to Jesus, Jehovah is well aware I am praying to him as he knows my heart and the intents of my prayer. This would be the same for any person who believes in the trinity. It's not about praying to an idol. It's about praying to Jehovah.

Do you really think that Jehovah would be so petty and so pedantic? Of course he wouldn't be because the bible tells us quite clearly he looks at our hearts and our intents. It's out intent that matters. If he can see we are genuinely trying to communicate with him do you really think he's going to flag us away just because we called him Jesus?

If Jehovah really is as petty and vindictive as you seem to be implying then he's hardly worthy of any praise or adulation.

To pray to Jesus would be idolatry, just like praying to Mary or St. Jude or a tree. Jesus himself clearly said: "Pray in THIS way: OUR FATHER who is in heaven...." (Matthew 6:9, NASB)

It's nothing like praying to Mary. Mary is not part of the trinity. She is not part of God. When I prayed to Jesus, as far as I was concerned I was praying to Jehovah. Jehovah would of course realise this as he knows my heart and my intent. He knows that when I'm praying to Jesus its actually him I direct it at because I believe Jesus to be part of him.

For me though, with my prayers, it was usually the name God I would use. Occasionally I would say lord Jesus, but about 9 times out of 10 it was God.

It is NOT anyone's intention to pray to Jehovah if they are praying to a statue or any other idol.

Praying to Jesus is not praying to a statue or an idol. It's praying to Jehovah. That is how it is seen by Christians.

Even Catholics who may kneel in front of wooden cross or effigy of Jesus aren't guilty of idol worship either. In their minds they are praying directly to Jehovah. They are not serving an idol. They are serving Jehovah. I would say even with them, Jehovah is going to look at their hearts and their intents and thus honor their prayers.

If however someone is worshipping or praying to an actual idol, that is a different thing altogether. The intent of those people is to worship a god other than Jehovah.

Most people will vehemently castigate "Jehovah" and any mention of Him. He is foreign to them, and they want nothing to do with Him. Try mentioning "Jehovah" to your family and friends. Observe their reaction. I think you'll agree that they don't think much of "Jehovah."

All Christians that I have come again, believe Jehovah to be their God. Jesus is simply just part of Jehovah.

I'm just wondering....if you think that God is OK with people using idols in their worship, why did he give people the First and Second Commandments?

Where on earth did you ever get the idea I thought it was ok to worship idols? Praying to Jesus is not idol worship. Praying to Jesus is praying to Jehovah. There is no difference.

[OnceConvinced]

Well, as I see it, I think you just answered your own question. You wouldn't even consider listening to one of those cultists!

If that were the case and I wasn't willing to listen, we would not be debating right now.

Have I put you on ignore yet? Maybe if I ever stop responding to your posts, maybe then you might be able to say I won't consider listening.

I can tell you right now there are other Christians I would think have far more weirder beliefs than the JWs. I haven't ignored them either.

You say, "God would not be trying to talk to me through them! No way!"

Did I say that? I don't believe I did. If God is talking through you then what you would be saying would be profound and would have a great impact on me. However all you are showing me is that JW is an elitist organisation which attempts to exclude other Christians as part of the true church. That goes against what the bible tells me. You also portray god as a petty being who is not able to decipher that when I am praying to Jesus I'm actually praying to him. That also doesn't line up with scripture.

And you wonder why they never said, "hey there's someone else in this house that we want to talk to"?

If they had wanted to talk to me I would have most likely talked to them and had a good old debate with them like I am doing right now with you. (and enjoying it).

If God had wanted to get a message to me then he would have got them to make an effort, don't you think? If he wanted me to know that JW is the true Christian church, you'd think he would have got his followers at least ask to speak to me. You'd think he' make some effort to get the true message to me while I was still a believer. I doubt he would have waited until I was an atheist to do so.

He had 40 years. Epic fail on Jehovah's part.

But go on... keep trying to make out it's my fault that Jehovah was so inept at getting his message to me.

Why would God direct them to YOU when you have said quite succinctly that you think they're weirdos?

God is quite capable of communicating with me directly. Why would he need any human to do it? Even a fellow Christian part of my own circle?

If God is real I would expect him to convict me if I am doing wrong. I would expect to hear that little voice in my head telling me that I am on the wrong path. That something is wrong.

So, the question remains, "why hasn't God answered my prayers?" (1) You were not praying to the God of the Bible (look at Psalm 83:18, KJV),

I was most definitely praying to the god of the bible. It was my intent to pray to him. It was in my heart to pray to him. If this god is real then he knows my heart and my intents as the scripture tells us he does.

and (2) you were not willing to even think that God might be nudging you toward Jehovah's Witnesses---you say they are "a cult and are weird." There's your answer.

Why would I ever think he was nudging me towards Jehovah's witness, when from everywhere I was being told they were a cult? The fact that everyone, even fellow Christians saw them as such would surely as a Christian be a confirmation that it was not the way to go.

If JW was the way to go, I'm sure God would have challenged me about that, but he never did. He seemed happy I was in the churches I was in and was even blessing me with roles of great responsibility in the church. There was never, not even once, any suggestion by anyone, let alone God that I was in the wrong place. It very much seemed as though I was in the right place and that God had put me in the church I was in for a reason.

The only JWs I have ever even talked to about Christianity, that I can recall, are you guys here. But now I'm no longer even a believer in Jesus. If God wanted me to be a JW, perhaps he should have sent guys like you along when I was losing my faith 8 years ago. But he didn't. Not even when I was debating online as a Christian.

Since then the Christians I have spoken to at length have been non-Jehovah's witnesses. At least as far as I am aware.

God could have sent the right people across my path when I really needed them the most, but he didn't. Instead I remained in the situation I was crying out to a god who never answered. That god I was crying out to was Jehovah, not any other god.

I know full well who I was crying out to and it wasn't no idol.

[JehovahsWitness]

I see them as like those two Neanderthals laughing and scoffing at the other Neanderthal who is worshipping exactly the same thing as they are.

That is exactly the point of the cartoons. Idolatry is Idolatry and its all abhorant to the true God. True worshippers of the only true God will never be found in this physical position of bowing before a rock or a stone. Ones intentions cannot make what is unacceptable to God acceptable.


That said Jehovah's Witnesses never look down our noses or call people "neaderthals" as you have just done. We ourselves are all former Catholics, Methodists, Baptists etc. we may have been ignorant of God's standards but that was because we were duped and in spiritual darkness. We know that Jehovah is searching for sincere people that WANT to learn the truth and change. Onewithhim asked a very interesting question worthy of reflection...

Just maybe He answered you but you didn't accept that answer when it came. Is that possible?

[Monta]

[Replying to post 122 by OnceConvinced]

"God could have sent the right people across my path when I really needed them the most, but he didn't. Instead I remained in the situation I was crying out to a god who never answered. That god I was crying out to was Jehovah, not any other god. "

I have kind of walked your path so relating in accordance with it not telling you what is right or wrong.
After training in theology I gave up religion for 20 years. It was sad and lonely. looking back, it was neccessary to free me from religious dogmas and other people's ideas re religion. Then I started mixing with other Churches, New Agers; even went to a spiritualist church, read many books that any christian would have condemned. I had an open mind and I wanted information. Of course I was lucky; I heard the name Swedenborg and wanted to know what he said. He's answeded all my question and I am content. All I can say life is, its worth it, don't stop searching.
I think whan we empty ourselves of all preconceived ideas of what think God is, only then can God's influx flow in and teach us.

You were crying to Jehovah and not any other god; what convinced you that Jehovah is the God of heaven and earth? Of course if you are Jewish its understandable.

[Peds nurse]

- Do you personally entertain the hope of going to heaven to spend eternity with God when you die? (if this question is too personal I respect if you do not want to share this information)

I don't entertain the hope, I am certain of the hope that I have in Christ Jesus. I am certain that I will be where He is when my physical body fails to exist.

- If so, do you believe such a literal spiritual realm exists?

I absolutely do! Abraham, Moses, Elijah...have all experienced it, and Paul was most excited for it. I cannot say that I know what it will be like, but to be in the very presence of God himself? I can't possibly imagine anything greater!
-

Do you believe that Jesus is presently in heaven where God exists?

I do, because God said that Jesus would sit at his right hand. He also said that He would go and prepare a place for us. I believe that place to be in Heaven.

* My question is for people that do believe that a God exists, since I presume that those that do not believe in God do believe he exists anywhere and therefore there is no "heaven" where God is.[/quote]

[OnceConvinced]

I see them as like those two Neanderthals laughing and scoffing at the other Neanderthal who is worshipping exactly the same thing as they are.

That is exactly the point of the cartoons. Idolatry is Idolatry and its all abhorant to the true God. True worshippers of the only true God will never be found in this physical position of bowing before a rock or a stone. Ones intentions cannot make what is unacceptable to God acceptable.

Forget the rocks. The rocks are only a metaphor for gods. It's not about idolatry. It's not actually about worshipping rocks.

That said Jehovah's Witnesses never look down our noses or call people "neaderthals" as you have just done.

I have not called anyone Neanderthals. I am referring to the characters in the cartoon. Call them what you like, they just looked like Neanderthals to me or something similar. The cartoon is a metaphor. It in no way is talking about worshipping rocks. It's talking about worshipping gods. ie the god you worship is likened to a pile of rocks. The god others are worshipping is likened to a pile of rocks. They are likened to a pile of rocks because they are all exactly the same, ie, useless and not really gods at all.

We ourselves are all former Catholics, Methodists, Baptists etc. we may have been ignorant of God's standards but that was because we were duped and in spiritual darkness. We know that Jehovah is searching for sincere people that WANT to learn the truth and change.

I would hope that JWs would also realise that Christians who are not part of the JWs are also sincere people and that they don't need to be part of the JWs to be what Jehovah is looking for. One would hope that they could understand that Jehovah looks at the hearts of people, their intends and how genuine they are when it comes to wanting to serve him. He is not interested in whether you have every bit of doctrine and dogma right.

Onewithhim asked a very interesting question worthy of reflection...

Which I answered. Did you read my reply?

[onewithhim]

It might be a problem because Jehovah is NOT Jesus.

Well like I have pointed out earlier, a person who believes in the trinity believes that Jesus is part of Jehovah. Thus if he's praying to Jesus, he's praying to Jehovah. That is his full intention. Jehovah would know the heart and the intents of the person praying and would be well aware that even though the person is saying Jesus, that he's trying to communicate with Jehovah himself.

We as humans are normally not as petty as what you imply Jehovah is. When someone uses the wrong name for us or even maybe a name we don't like, do we then just ignore the person? Do we demonise them and say "oh you're evil, you aren't calling me by my real name.".

For instance:

I have a surname which regularly gets confused with another name, which really sounds completely different but people still somehow manage to screw it up. I even get mail sent to me with this false surname. However I am not so stupid as to throw the letter away without reading it. I know that the writer is actually intending it to be me, so I open the letter and read it.

My surname also used to get the same nickname wherever I went. I hated it as a child, but yet every school I went to, it would be only a few days later when the nickname started to be used and I'd be stuck with it. Everybody would be using it. However did I ignore people who used it? No, because I know they were referring to me.

Even if I pray to Jesus, Jehovah is well aware I am praying to him as he knows my heart and the intents of my prayer. This would be the same for any person who believes in the trinity. It's not about praying to an idol. It's about praying to Jehovah.

Do you really think that Jehovah would be so petty and so pedantic? Of course he wouldn't be because the bible tells us quite clearly he looks at our hearts and our intents. It's out intent that matters. If he can see we are genuinely trying to communicate with him do you really think he's going to flag us away just because we called him Jesus?

If Jehovah really is as petty and vindictive as you seem to be implying then he's hardly worthy of any praise or adulation.

To pray to Jesus would be idolatry, just like praying to Mary or St. Jude or a tree. Jesus himself clearly said: "Pray in THIS way: OUR FATHER who is in heaven...." (Matthew 6:9, NASB)

It's nothing like praying to Mary. Mary is not part of the trinity. She is not part of God. When I prayed to Jesus, as far as I was concerned I was praying to Jehovah. Jehovah would of course realise this as he knows my heart and my intent. He knows that when I'm praying to Jesus its actually him I direct it at because I believe Jesus to be part of him.

For me though, with my prayers, it was usually the name God I would use. Occasionally I would say lord Jesus, but about 9 times out of 10 it was God.

It is NOT anyone's intention to pray to Jehovah if they are praying to a statue or any other idol.

Praying to Jesus is not praying to a statue or an idol. It's praying to Jehovah. That is how it is seen by Christians.

Even Catholics who may kneel in front of wooden cross or effigy of Jesus aren't guilty of idol worship either. In their minds they are praying directly to Jehovah. They are not serving an idol. They are serving Jehovah. I would say even with them, Jehovah is going to look at their hearts and their intents and thus honor their prayers.

If however someone is worshipping or praying to an actual idol, that is a different thing altogether. The intent of those people is to worship a god other than Jehovah.

Most people will vehemently castigate "Jehovah" and any mention of Him. He is foreign to them, and they want nothing to do with Him. Try mentioning "Jehovah" to your family and friends. Observe their reaction. I think you'll agree that they don't think much of "Jehovah."

All Christians that I have come again, believe Jehovah to be their God. Jesus is simply just part of Jehovah.

I'm just wondering....if you think that God is OK with people using idols in their worship, why did he give people the First and Second Commandments?

Where on earth did you ever get the idea I thought it was ok to worship idols? Praying to Jesus is not idol worship. Praying to Jesus is praying to Jehovah. There is no difference.

If you go back over your recent posts you will see that you said that God knows that everyone praying to their idols is praying TO HIM. By saying that, you are agreeing with the use of idols in prayer & worship.

And how has it happened that you skip over large portions of my comments and then ask the same questions that you had before I commented? Why not read all of my comments? I had explained how praying to Jesus is NOT praying to Jehovah. And your claim that every Christian you have talked to thinks of Jehovah as their God is beyond belief. Go right this minute and ask everyone you come in contact with who Jehovah is, and watch what their reaction is.


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[onewithhim]

Well, as I see it, I think you just answered your own question. You wouldn't even consider listening to one of those cultists!

If that were the case and I wasn't willing to listen, we would not be debating right now.

Have I put you on ignore yet? Maybe if I ever stop responding to your posts, maybe then you might be able to say I won't consider listening.

I can tell you right now there are other Christians I would think have far more weirder beliefs than the JWs. I haven't ignored them either.

You say, "God would not be trying to talk to me through them! No way!"

Did I say that? I don't believe I did. If God is talking through you then what you would be saying would be profound and would have a great impact on me. However all you are showing me is that JW is an elitist organisation which attempts to exclude other Christians as part of the true church. That goes against what the bible tells me. You also portray god as a petty being who is not able to decipher that when I am praying to Jesus I'm actually praying to him. That also doesn't line up with scripture.

Yes you did say that you feel that God would never use Jehovah's Witnesses to talk to you.

And don't other churches ALSO claim to be the true church? It's my impression that every other church does say that.

God is no petty being. He knows if you are praying to Him, and if you're praying to His Son---even after His Son told you to pray only to OUR FATHER---He knows you are not praying to HIM, Jehovah.


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[ttruscott]

I doubt he would have waited until I was an atheist to do so.

He had 40 years. Epic fail on Jehovah's part.

If the Lord can quicken Sara with a son at 90 yrs old, He can quicken your spirit anytime, no?

What do we know about Lazarus...maybe he was a lapsed follower that died and his being brought back to life led him to eternal life. I don't think it was like that but if it was, it works.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 122 by OnceConvinced]

"God could have sent the right people across my path when I really needed them the most, but he didn't. Instead I remained in the situation I was crying out to a god who never answered. That god I was crying out to was Jehovah, not any other god. "

I have kind of walked your path so relating in accordance with it not telling you what is right or wrong.
After training in theology I gave up religion for 20 years. It was sad and lonely. looking back, it was neccessary to free me from religious dogmas and other people's ideas re religion. Then I started mixing with other Churches, New Agers; even went to a spiritualist church, read many books that any christian would have condemned. I had an open mind and I wanted information. Of course I was lucky; I heard the name Swedenborg and wanted to know what he said. He's answeded all my question and I am content. All I can say life is, its worth it, don't stop searching.
I think whan we empty ourselves of all preconceived ideas of what think God is, only then can God's influx flow in and teach us.

You were crying to Jehovah and not any other god; what convinced you that Jehovah is the God of heaven and earth? Of course if you are Jewish its understandable.

Do I understand correctly that you don't think much of the Bible? The Bible shows who is the God of heaven and Earth, 7,000 times in the Scriptures. Each of those 7,000 times shows God's personal name, in four Hebrew letters, most familiar to Bible readers as "Jehovah." Four of those times that "YHWH" appears in the Hebrew letters are rendered in the King James Version:

Exodus 6:3; Psalm 83:18; Isaiah 12:2; Isaiah 26:4


Would you look in a King James Version and then tell me why someone would consider Jehovah to be the God of heaven and earth? Why would you NOT?


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