Does God change his mind?

[OnceConvinced]

A Christian member of our forum recently pointed out a bible contradiction for all to see:

This verse was presented first:
Numbers 23:19 "God is not human, that he should lie, not a human being, that he should change his mind."

The Christian then attempted to trump it with a contradictory scripture where God DOES change his mind, thus exposing a blatant bible contradiction:

Jeremiah 18:8 "But if that nation about which I spoke turns from its evil way, I'll change my mind about the disaster that I had planned for it."

Here are further verses that show God changing his mind:

Exodus 32:14
So the LORD changed His mind about the harm which He said He would do to His people.

Amos 7:3
The LORD changed His mind about this. "It shall not be," said the LORD.

Jeremiah 18:10
if it does evil in My sight by not obeying My voice, then I will think better of the good with which I had promised to bless it. (wow this is a verse where God says he will break his promise!!)


So questions for debate:

Does Got change his mind?
If he does change his mind, how do we know he hasn't changed his mind about much of what he expected from us in the New Testament?
If he does change his mind, how can we really know what he wants of us today?

[Joe1950]

[Replying to post 366 by Joe1950]

The problem is that the early church incorporated massive amounts of Hellenic metaphysics. The latter enshrined the immune and the immutable. To make a long story short , this led to what might be called classical theism, the traditional model or picture of God as he is in his own nature. Accordingly, the major church fathers, creeds, and confessions, argued that God is wholly immutable, could not change in any respect. That was taken as absolute dogma to be believed absolutely. In the last century, however, the classical model has been challenged on a number of grounds, and neo-classical theists, such as myself, have stressed the need to attribute dynamic, contingent aspects to God. So, in many circles today, it is a very new idea to consider God as changing in key aspects.

As lifelong (adult life) atheist this is one of my problems with organized religion. It seems as though doctrine evolves. Does that mean Christians of the past were wrong? Will future Christians find today's Christians wrong? Even institutions like the Catholic church often change doctrine. Poor St. Christopher was given the boot, for example ! Same is true of Islam, with various schools of thought. In my way of thinking all religion claim to have absolute truths... then change them as time goes on.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 371 by Joe1950]

Yes, contrary to popular myth, churches do change their ideas. However, tht is true in just about every field, including science. If you want to arguer religion is a washout because of those changes, then you'd also have to drop just about every other field as well.

[marco]

[Replying to post 364 by marco]

I am willing to discuss the matter in more detail with you, though in a separate OP. However, if you wish to drop it, that's OK with me. We can maybe take it up at some future point when we are both refreshed.

Wisely said, Hoghead. We are fighting another battle while the question of God's changing opinions remains untouched by us.

I shall enjoy another discussion in another place on why and where we differ.

[Joe1950]

[Replying to post 371 by Joe1950]

Yes, contrary to popular myth, churches do change their ideas. However, tht is true in just about every field, including science. If you want to arguer religion is a washout because of those changes, then you'd also have to drop just about every other field as well.

Except there is one big difference between other fields and religion, don't you think? By the very nature of science and history it is assumed that knowledge will grow and possibly change interpretations. But most religions, on the other hand, claim to be based on an absolute truth and use that claim to justify specific rules of behavior for people. Muslims and Christians, for example, believe they are following the word of god. The absolute authority of god is the very basis of religious doctrine. Neither science nor history would make those claims of absolute authority.

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 370 by hoghead1]



[center]
More Either/or[/center]

The problem is that the early church incorporated massive amounts of Hellenic metaphysics.

Why is that a problem for you?
Process theology seems to incorporate other things.

To make a long story short , this led to what might be called classical theism, the traditional model or picture of God as he is in his own nature.

It seems to me that you are always talking about this either or situation: Classical theism vs your process. Either OR, my friend.

It ain't actually either/or.
There are plenty MORE.

We can imagine more than just those two versions of "God".

[Blastcat]

[Replying to post 372 by hoghead1]



[center]

What constantly changes can't be an absolute[/center]

Yes, contrary to popular myth, churches do change their ideas. However, tht is true in just about every field, including science. If you want to arguer religion is a washout because of those changes, then you'd also have to drop just about every other field as well.

Another day to mark:

People can and do change their minds.
We agree !!

People change their minds about what the Bible means all the time.
That belies any claim for an ultimate "Truth" , though.

An ultimate truth that constantly changes ... meh.
Not so ultimate to me.

Not so "absolute".

The thing is, we have plenty of evidence that people can't agree on what the Bible means. What we have are changing OPINIONS. That's it. Mere speculation built on mere speculation.


Talk about a house of card built upon another house of cards !
Hold your breath for this one folks.

It be shaky

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 373 by marco]

Good. I agree. We'll go H2H on this again. Getting back to right here,to thes OP, I gather from some of your previous posts that you agree God can change, right?

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 374 by Joe1950]

First, you claim that doctrine evolves (Post 371), then here you say it doesn't. That's a contradiction. What gives?

Much depends upon what branch of a particular religion you are talking about. Modern Christendom runs the whole gambit from liberal to conservative. Liberal Christians, such as myself, stress a healthy skepticism for dogma, an emphasis on creativity, and interfaith, interreligious dialogues based on mutual understanding. Of the academic world of theology, it has been said, since the 60's, that there is no orthodoxy, that everything is up from grabs. As I believe I mentioned earlier, I am a neo-classical theist and we are busy giving the doctrine of God a major face lift. However, on the right wing of Christendom, in the Bible Belt, for example, you would find great resistance to questioning of their traditional dogmas. If you are PCUSA (Presbyterian Church USA). as I am, then yes, we accept the ordination of women, gays, and lesbians. If you were more conservative, a member of the Orthodox Presbyterian Church or the Presbyterian Church America, then such ordination would be viewed as apostasy. I am also a Unitarian, and the Unitarian Church downplays dogma. We are the bring-you-own-theology church. So, again, it all depends upon which specific religious group you are talking about.

[marco]

[Replying to post 373 by marco]

Good. I agree. We'll go H2H on this again. Getting back to right here,to thes OP, I gather from some of your previous posts that you agree God can change, right?

Yes, the God presented in the Bible changes with the seasons, as does Allah. The bargaining to determine whether Sodom and Gomorrah should be destroyed is a case in point. Muhammad argued - absurdly - over the number of prayers that should daily be offered. Obviously God's portrayal in human terms makes him accessible to the average listener or reader; his threats make him a being to be feared; his preference for bits of male genitalia as trophies mark him as a fierce warrior. As a human-type of God he does what one expects a human to do and certainly changes his mind. In this respect his biblical portrayal is consistent.

[hoghead1]

[Replying to post 379 by marco]

I certainly agree that the Bible attributes change and deep emotion to God. However, I also find that the classical or traditional model of God, the God of the major church fathers, creeds, and confessions, is assumed to be wholly immutable, void of body, parts, passion, compassion, etc. I think it's pretty clear that, as a neo-classical theologian, I challenge that model. However, if you are inclined toward classical theism, I am interested in hearing your case. I say "if" because I'm not clear on whether your position is atheism or some form of classical theism.