Jehovah's Witnesses...

[Elijah John]

This question is specifically for Jehovah's Witnesses, but anyone is welcome to chime in.

As an organization who understands and appreciates the name of God, Father Jehovah, why regard Paul at all? Someone who places Jesus name above all, even above the name of Father Jehovah?

The Watchtower Society proclaims the name of the LORD Jehovah, Paul? Never. Unless I am missing something.

He seems to equate "the Lord" with "Christ", not YHVH.

Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name

Phillippians 2.9

For debate...has Paul put Jesus name above every other name including YHVH's?

If it was God and not Paul who did this, where does YHVH say He would ever do this, putting the Messiah's name above His own?

If not, why doesn't Paul proclaim YHVH's name, only Jesus?

If Paul has put Jesus name above all, why should anyone who loves YHVH consider Paul's writings "Sacred Scripture"?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 3 by onewithhim]

Granted, Paul gives lip service to the Father. But the name he proclaims is "Jesus" and not Jehovah.

Also, why do you believe that God gave Jesus a name above every other? Because Paul said so? If YHVH ever said that He Himself would put the Messiah's name above His own, I sure cannot find it, can you?

The fact that Paul is doing something unauthorized here, (putting Jesus name above God's) should set off alarms, it seems to me. Alarms for anyone who loves YHVH, the only true God.

Also, if Jesus name is above every human name, shouldn't the Messiah's name be a unique name? But it's not, it is shared with Joshua, for one.

In fact, Jehovah has REPEATEDLY said that there is NO ONE like him. He is God and He is THE MOST HIGH. (Psalm 83:18, KJV)

Paul didn't say that Jesus' name was higher than Jehovah's. I said what I meant to be an explanation of why he would NOT say that.

Jesus' name is "above every human name" in the sense that HE is above every human. He is above everyone else in the universe except his Father, Jehovah, Whom he calls "MY GOD." (John 20:17; Revelation 3:12)

Good points, but why do you suppose that Paul did not proclaim YHVH's name? He seemed to have no trouble proclaiming "Christ" or prolaiming Jesus name.

He seems to have done this instead of proclaiming YHVH's name.

Isn't that too, in effect, putting Jesus name above Jehovah's? Even though he could well have meant "above every human name.

He could have been clearer and said "except YHVH's". Perhaps the average Jew listening would have understood that. But YHVH's Name was supposed to have been proclaimed to the Nations.

Instead of God, a man is preached...in effect. Paul is all about "Christ".

So Paul proclaimed Jesus' name to the Nations, not YHVH's.

The effect? Trinitarianism, and those who write hymns "Praising his holy name" more often than not mean "Praise Jesus' Holy Name", not YHVH's.

And when they sing "Hallelujah, folks often have no clue that the word of praise refers to YHVH, not Jesus."Praise Yah" not "Praise Jesus". But they use it anyway for Jesus.

Jews understand this, and JWs but not most who call themselves "Christian".

There is evidence that the Tetragrammaton was indeed used by the writers of the New Testament. Jerome (4th century) wrote that Matthew composed his gospel using the Hebrew language and all its characters, but the persons who translated it afterward were not known, and apparently they made some changes. (Concerning Illustrious Men, chapter III, translation from the Latin edited by E.C. Richardson, Texte und Untersuchungen zur Geschichte der altchristlichen Literatur, Vol.14, 1896, pp.8,9)

Matthew, for one, quoted the O.T. more than a hundred times. He would have been obliged to include the Divine Name wherever it appeared in the O.T., as a lover of Christ and Jehovah. When the Gospel was translated into Greek, the Tetragrammaton was left untranslated within the Greek text ACCORDING TO THE PRACTICE OF THAT TIME.

One source says that "not only Matthew but ALL the writers of the N.T. quoted verses from the Hebrew text where the Divine Name appears." Peter's speech at Acts 3:22 quotes Deuteronomy 18:15 (where the Tetragrammaton appears in a papyrus fragment of the Septuagint from the first century B.C.) As a follower of Christ Peter would have used God's name, Jehovah, and when his speech was put on record, the Tetragrammaton was here used according to the practice during the first century B.C. and the first century A.D.

"Sometime during the second or third century A.D. the scribes REMOVED the Tetragrammaton from both the Septuagint and the Christian Greek Scriptures (N.T.) and REPLACED it with Kyrios, 'Lord' or Theos, 'God.'"


George Howard of the University of Georgia wrote in Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol.96, 1977, p.63: "We will set forth a theory that the divine name [and he put down the 4 Hebrew letters of the Tetragrammaton] was originally written in the N.T. quotations of and allusions to the O.T. and that in the course of time IT WAS REPLACED MAINLY WITH THE SURROGATE KYRIOS. This removal of the Tetragrammaton, in our view, created a confusion in the minds of early Gentile Christians about the relationship between the 'Lord God' and the 'Lord Christ' which is reflected in the manuscript tradition of the N.T. text itself."

This, to me, is a presentation of the FACTS of history as to the transmission of Bible manuscripts. And to get back to Paul.....why would HE exclude himself from the practice of the other writers of the N.T. and leave out the Divine Name? I would say that it is unfair to ASSUME that he did so.

It was not Paul's fault that God's name got taken out of his writings and of Matthew's and Peter's. It is the fault of the men who came after and removed the Name.


.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

As Jehovah's Witnesses we do not adhere to the interpretation that Paul's words put Jesus above JEHOVAH. We don't believe that they do.

We have regard for Paul because we believe the entire bible is inspired of God and Paul was a bible writer, thus for us when we read the words of Paul we are in fact reading what Almighty God Jehovah is conveying through the Apostle Paul. We don't have a "fragmented" approach to the bible based on the personalities of the writers, we view the entire book as the word of God. If you go to our meetings, while we will often refer to Paul and his life and work, when we read his writings more often than not rather than hearing "Let's hear what Paul said", you'll hear "Let's read what [strike]Paul[/strike] God tells us in Ephesians" or "Jehovah instructs us in Corinthians X, Y, Z" or quite simple "God tells us in Hebrews ..."


To reject Paul's writings as recorded in scripture is to reject God's words. To reject God's words is to reject God.

Why do you believe that Paul speaks for God, instead of just for Paul? Why take the theological speculations contained in Paul's letters as the Word of God?

Why Paul and not say, the Pope with his Papal encyclicals? Both collections of writings are pastoral letters.

Also, isn't the fact that Paul does not preach Jehovah by name enough to make anyone who loves YHVH question Paul?

Why do you suppose that Paul preached Christ, and never Jehovah? True, he might have meant Jehovah and preached Him implicitly, but he certainly seems never to have proclaimed his Name.

[Elijah John]

There is evidence that the Tetragrammaton was indeed used by the writers of the New Testament. Jerome (4th century) wrote that Matthew composed his gospel using the Hebrew language and all its characters, but the persons who translated it afterward were not known, and apparently they made some changes. (Concerning Illustrious Men, chapter III, translation from the Latin edited by E.C. Richardson, Texte und Untersuchungen zur Geschichte der altchristlichen Literatur, Vol.14, 1896, pp.8,9)

Matthew, for one, quoted the O.T. more than a hundred times. He would have been obliged to include the Divine Name wherever it appeared in the O.T., as a lover of Christ and Jehovah. When the Gospel was translated into Greek, the Tetragrammaton was left untranslated within the Greek text ACCORDING TO THE PRACTICE OF THAT TIME.

One source says that "not only Matthew but ALL the writers of the N.T. quoted verses from the Hebrew text where the Divine Name appears." Peter's speech at Acts 3:22 quotes Deuteronomy 18:15 (where the Tetragrammaton appears in a papyrus fragment of the Septuagint from the first century B.C.) As a follower of Christ Peter would have used God's name, Jehovah, and when his speech was put on record, the Tetragrammaton was here used according to the practice during the first century B.C. and the first century A.D.

"Sometime during the second or third century A.D. the scribes REMOVED the Tetragrammaton from both the Septuagint and the Christian Greek Scriptures (N.T.) and REPLACED it with Kyrios, 'Lord' or Theos, 'God.'"


George Howard of the University of Georgia wrote in Journal of Biblical Literature, Vol.96, 1977, p.63: "We will set forth a theory that the divine name [and he put down the 4 Hebrew letters of the Tetragrammaton] was originally written in the N.T. quotations of and allusions to the O.T. and that in the course of time IT WAS REPLACED MAINLY WITH THE SURROGATE KYRIOS. This removal of the Tetragrammaton, in our view, created a confusion in the minds of early Gentile Christians about the relationship between the 'Lord God' and the 'Lord Christ' which is reflected in the manuscript tradition of the N.T. text itself."

This, to me, is a presentation of the FACTS of history as to the transmission of Bible manuscripts. And to get back to Paul.....why would HE exclude himself from the practice of the other writers of the N.T. and leave out the Divine Name? I would say that it is unfair to ASSUME that he did so.

It was not Paul's fault that God's name got taken out of his writings and of Matthew's and Peter's. It is the fault of the men who came after and removed the Name.


.

A good and plausible argument. Paul may indeed have honored YHVH by Name. But assuming that is true, he certainly did not seem to emphasize the importance of God's name. Instead, his teaching centered on Christ, and his name which seems to have become a substitute (in importance for all Pauline Christians) for God's holy Name.

Example? Paul says "for me to live is Christ, and to die is gain". Why didn't he say instead: "for me to live is Jehovah, and to die is gain"? Unless of course, he puts Christ above Jehovah.

For Paul, Christ seems to have been his "end all and be all" and not Jehovah, except perhaps by implication, and indirectly.

[JehovahsWitness]

Why do you believe that Paul speaks for God, instead of just for Paul?

I didn't say "Paul is speaking for God" I said, God is speaking through Paul. Just like a man might speak using a microphone. The mike isn't "speaking for the man" the mike is being USED by the man.

Your question is the equavalent of asking "Why do Jehovah's Witnesses believe the bible is the word of God"? I have answered that question many times over on the pages of this forum.

Also, isn't the fact that Paul does not preach Jehovah by name enough to make anyone who loves YHVH question Paul?

No that is not a fact. See above.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 871#856871

onewithhim
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 884#856884

Why do you suppose that Paul preached Christ, and never Jehovah? True, he might have meant Jehovah and preached Him implicitly, but he certainly seems never to have proclaimed his Name.

Ditto

[JehovahsWitness]

Paul may indeed have honored YHVH by Name. But assuming that is true, he certainly did not seem to emphasize the importance of God's name. Instead, his teaching centered on Christ, and his name which seems to have become a substitute (in importance for all Pauline Christians) for God's holy Name.

Example? Paul says "for me to live is Christ, and to die is gain". Why didn't he say instead: "for me to live is Jehovah, and to die is gain"? Unless of course, he puts Christ above Jehovah.

For Paul, Christ seems to have been his "end all and be all" and not Jehovah, except perhaps by implication, and indirectly.

Yes, but you have to understand we don't hold to YOUR interpretation of scripture, neither do we hold you your view of what he should have said and why. In short, when you read a passage you say "Paul is meaning this..." and when we read the same passage we more likely than not will say "No, Paul is meaning THIS" Thus we cannot have a discussion on "why did Paul say X when Y would be better" because we don't agree on the premise. How can you ask us to address a potential "imbalance" in scripture when we do not accept there IS an imbalance?

As far as I can see, taking Pauls role and looking at the total of his writings, his writings strike the perfect balance between reverence and honor for God and honor for the chief agent Jehovah is using for transmitting life to mankind, namely Jesus Christ. Obviously someone that rejects the ransom and any notion of blood atonement for sin will come to a completely different conclusion as to the appropriateness of the expressions read in Paul's letters.

Again, Jehovah's Witnesses approach the whole bible and its central themes, source and overall purpose differently

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 14 by JehovahsWitness]

Good link, and I agree with both you and owh that the Divine Name was omitted by the Greek translators.

But that still begs the question, as to why for Paul "Christ" had preeminence over preaching Jehovah by name, explicitly and often.

Again, the example of Paul's "for me to live is Christ and to die is gain" instead of "for me to live is Jehovah, and to die is gain".

That verse, and many others, is telling. Paul's treasure seems to have been Christ, not Jehovah. And there his heart resided.

Granted, Paul said it was all for he glory and the honor of the Father, and probably mentioned the Father by name, but he certainly did not seem to emphasize YHVH by name.

Could this be Paul's imbalance too?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 16 by Elijah John]

As I said I see no imbalance. Reading the New World Translation (with the Diviine name restored to it's rightful place) the Christian Greek Scriptures reflect a perfect balance and focus.

JW

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 16 by Elijah John]

As I said I see no imbalance. Reading the New World Translation (with the Diviine name restored to it's rightful place) the Christian Greek Scriptures reflect a perfect balance and focus.

JW

I'm not disputing whether or not the NWT is right or wrong in it's restoration of the Divne name to the NT. But Paul seems to emphasize "Christ" more than YHVH. Even in the NWT.

Again, "for me to live is Chist and to die is gain" Seems Paul has his priorities mixed up, putting "Christ" ahead of YHVH.

Why do you suppose he did not say "for me to live is YHVH, and to die is gain", instead, in effect, calling "Christ" his all?.

[onewithhim]

Replying to post #18 by Elijah John:

MHO: I don't think that Paul honors Christ more than God, the Father. He makes sure he mentions Christ a lot because he wanted the Jews to clearly see that Christ was God's means of saving mankind. They did not accept that, generally speaking. It was imperative that they understood that vital fact.

On the other hand, Paul honored Jehovah consistently, mentioning Him in every letter.

I took the time to quote from several of his letters to various congregations, showing that God and the Father were mentioned as most significant. I won't quote them all again; I'll just take one letter and try to make my point.

We agree, I think, that Christ is not God. So every time Paul mentions "God" he is speaking of the Father, Jehovah. In the letter to the Romans, "God" is mentioned 143 times, and Jehovah's name carried over from the O.T. at least 13 times (I don't think I counted all of them). Jesus is mentioned 65 times, as either "Christ," "Jesus Christ," or "Lord Jesus."

To me it looks like God/Jehovah is mentioned more than twice as many times as Christ is mentioned. Doesn't this put Jehovah at the very top of the pyramid?


.

[JehovahsWitness]

But Paul seems to emphasize "Christ" more than YHVH. Even in the NWT.

No he doesn't. Onewithhim has presented some good information. I am grateful because I do not feel inclinded to present a study on the subject a this present time myself. I would just add that given who Paul was writing to and WHY his letters, they display a absolutely perfect focus.

Paul's letters books were not written to prove Jehovah is the True God, he was writing to Christians who were either Jews (wholely familiar with Jehovah) or Gentile Christians who had by definition already been educated as to who Jehovah is.

Even in our religion, arguably the religion that puts the most emphesis on Jehovah's name, we don't have many lessons dealing with "who is the true God" for those that already educated baptised and part of the Christian congregation. Those things are for those ignorant of God's name and/or it's importance and printed in literature for the public. Within the congregation the emphasis shifts from "Is Jehovah the True God" to "How to praise and honor the true God" Paul was writing about how Jehovah now wanted to be worshipped and Jesus is the "how".

Paul was writing at the dawn of the new Christian arrangement. There was a monumental shift from the Temple based system to one based on Christ. Jehovah had'nt simply opened the doors to the old Mosaic system to welcome in the gentiles, he built a "new temple" in CHRIST and was inviting all, both Jews and Gentiles to worship him in a "new" way , in "spirit and truth" (see John 4:24).

Jesus chose Paul specifically to be an instrument in firmly establishing and building up this new congregational arrangement, little wonder then Paul speaks extensively of Christ and his role in salvation.

If I understand you think Paul spoke too extensively of this theme. We disagree.


JW

224 = Jesus
______________
446 = God
79 = JEHOVAH

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