Do you have the hope of going to heaven

[JehovahsWitness]

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I do not have a hope of going to heaven (when I speak of "heaven" I mean the spiritual abode/realm where God lives).

- Do you personally entertain the hope of going to heaven to spend eternity with God when you die? (if this question is too personal I respect if you do not want to share this information)

- If so, do you believe such a literal spiritual realm exists?

- Do you believe that Jesus is presently in heaven where God exists?



* My question is for people that do believe that a God exists, since I presume that those that do not believe in God do believe he exists anywhere and therefore there is no "heaven" where God is.

[OnceConvinced]

Yes I would need to ask these questions... and they have not been given satisfactory answers,

Or perhaps just answers you don't like because you want to continue to believe what the JW church has taught you?

answers that thinking minds can accept.

A little thought would help you understand that Trinitarians do not see these things as separate gods.

Who are you to tell them what they believe?

It seems to me that trinity-believers are quite confused about what they are believing.

It seems to be you that is the only one who is confused, which is why you are still questioning it. It's quite clear what the trinity is in my mind. Those who understand what the trinity is feel no need to ask such questions. It's quite clear in their mind. The only one who it's not clear about it appears to be you.

For example: I have asked most trinity-believers:

Is the Father "God"? They answer YES.

Is the Son "God"? They answer YES.

Is the H.S. "God"? They answer YES.


Each one is God. Now add them up.

They are ALL God. They are all ONE god. That god being Jehovah.

I don't see what is confusing here for you.

No one is claiming them to be separate gods but you.

Perhaps if you ask better questions, you might not find it so confusing.'

Perhaps if you asked:

Is the father god?
Is the son a different god?
Is the HS a different god again?

The answer will of course be no. The answer will be they are all the same God. One SINGULAR God with different parts/purposes or whatever.

[onewithhim]

onewithhim says

IMHO, it is you who have not grasped what the Trinity is. In its very name, "trinity," it is revealed just how many Persons make up this version of "God." They are three different Persons, supposedly, who are altogether one God. If they all make up one God, then how can a trinitarian say the following?

The Father is God
The Son is God.
The H.S. is God.

Add them up. There are THREE Gods. Trinitarians are worshiping a polytheistic god.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't you the person who talked about little g gods, about how personages such as Jesus were seen as little g gods?
So who are you to criticise others for holding polytheistic beliefs?

In either case, Trinitarians would say that the above is a gross mischaractirization of their beliefs. They would say the Father, Son, and H.S. are three facets of the one singular God.
Zeus, Hades and Poseidon would be three gods, according to their own followers. Zeus in the form of a thunderbolt, in the form of a bull and in a third form, would not be polytheistic, it would all still be Zeus.
Or to give a modern example: the Necromancer from the Hobbit movies/books is but a facet of the Dark Lord Sauron, a different form that entity took in the story.

Polytheism is worshipping more than one God as GOD ALMIGHTY. Trinitarians do this. Jesus is "God." The Father is "God." Etc.,etc. Each Person of the trinity is, in himself, "God." Each one!

Monotheists, like JWs, worship ONLY THE FATHER, JEHOVAH as God Almighty. Just Him and Him alone.

There are MANY "little g gods" ....as Paul particularly brought out in his letter to the Corinthians:

"There is no God but one. For even if there are so-called gods whether in heaven or on earth, as indeed there are many gods and many lords, yet for US there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things..." (I Corinth.8:4b-6a, NASB)

Do you insist on calling all the little-g gods "almighty"? THEN they would be part of a polytheistic belief system. But I do not consider the little-g gods to be equal to Jehovah the Most High. Therefore I am not worshipping the little-g gods as God Almighty. I am not polytheistic, as are the trinitarians.

And please don't tell me I don't understand what "trinity" means. I grew up in trinitarian churches---Methodist, Southern Baptist, and a few others.




[/b]

[OnceConvinced]

Then what did Jehovah mean when he said the following?

"You shall not make for yourself an idol, or any likeness of what is in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the water under the earth. You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God." (Ex.20:4,5, NASB)

I have already explained this at length in my posts. The problem here is not making them, the problem is making them AND worshiping and serving them and treating them as gods.

No Catholic I know of prays or worships these things. You will not see a catholic sitting in front of a wooden cross and praying to the cross and saying "Dear Cross of Jesus, I praise you. Please help me cross."

The problem with idols was that people in bible times were creating them and treating them as gods. The Catholics are not doing that.

It may be that they bow down in front of crosses or effigies of Jesus, but the prayers they pray are directed at Jehovah not the actually object. For them it is simply a tradition... a religious ritual to bow down in front of those objects when they pray. That is not meaning they are making an idol of those objects. It is exactly the same as closing your eyes, or kneeling and praying or clasping our hands together in prayer. It is simply just a tradition or religious ritual, nothing more.

You need to do more than just look on the outside and judge people. You need to know what is going on in their hearts and what their intentions are. No Christian worships or prays to wooden objects.

The scriptures you are quoting there is telling you not to worship foreign gods and not to worship objects, that's all. There was a problem with people worshipping objects back then. That is why it was condemned.

Like I said, if you're gonna condemn people for building tributes to gods, then you have to also condemn people for building churches and anything else used to honour God. Any object that is used in any religious ritual. In fact if you walk into a church and pray, you are actually worshipping an idol. That's if we go via your logic.

Never mind what it does NOT say. Tell me what those verses are actually saying.

Thank you.

You need to look at the intents of the scripture. It's simply about worshiping objects and foreign gods. No Catholic is doing that at all.

But like I said previously, I'm not interested in sticking up for Catholics.

[OnceConvinced]

Not so. Every one of those "names" on your list are really NOT names, but are TITLES. Only two of them are God's personal name---"Jehovah" and "Yahweh."

None of the others are God's personal name. And "Jehovah" and "Yahweh" come from the same Hebrew word: YHWH, the Tetragrammaton, which I gave you a link to click on and see what it looks like.

You will see that Tetragrammaton 7,000 times throughout the Hebrew Scriptures.

IMHO, you have fallen for some very precarious baloney. Would you reconsider?

They are still names you can use for God. I don't see why Jehovah would have a problem with you using them when praying to him.

But who cares? Why should it matter what name we give God. The main thing is that we pray to him and not some other god. You could call God, "Bob" if you wanted to. It doesn't make any difference whatsoever because God knows your heart and intentions.

[Demented_Literature]

Monotheists, like JWs, worship ONLY THE FATHER, JEHOVAH as God Almighty. Just Him and Him alone.

There are MANY "little g gods" ....as Paul particularly brought out in his letter to the Corinthians:

Do you insist on calling all the little-g gods "almighty"? THEN they would be part of a polytheistic belief system. But I do not consider the little-g gods to be equal to Jehovah the Most High. Therefore I am not worshipping the little-g gods as God Almighty. I am not polytheistic, as are the trinitarians.

And please don't tell me I don't understand what "trinity" means. I grew up in trinitarian churches---Methodist, Southern Baptist, and a few others.
[/b]

An interesting argument because it presumes that other gods do indeed exist. And that they are be definition gods and lords as Yahweh is.

Exodus 12:12
For I will pass through the land of Egypt this night, and will smite all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; and against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the LORD.

So by this idea there are a pantheon of gods and you should only worship one; but the others do indeed exist and they have the ability to manipulate the world also?

And I always found the 'trinity' despicable personally. There was 4 entities in the creation of the so called 'saviour' according to the bible; The Father, The Son, The Holy Spirit and The Mother. It is by definition a 4th entity that creates the human connection completing the puzzle. Without The Mother it is presumed that it is above humans; and there for to me disconnected and irrelevant. But that's my own personal opinion.

[Demented_Literature]

The answer of going to heaven; the bible states (New Testament to collaborate with many christian strange beliefs that the old testament can be 'abandoned')

Matthew
23Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Truly I tell you, it is hard for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.�

25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?�

26Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.�

My understanding is which is often repeated that you must live a good life and be a good person. You may or may not follow the teachings of Christ in this matter; but it is not border hinged on following Christ himself. And it would be paramount for an all loving god not to punish an individual who lead a good life and did as Christ would have to punish someone to eternal damnation because of their own discretion and the free will which he supposedly gave and which a person used for good entirely except to turn an eye away from a god who offers no evidence of his existence outside a book written by middle aged peasants.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 179 by OnceConvinced]

I don't see the trinity in any of that. I don't understand how you can.

Then you clearly skipped over crucial scriptures. Please go back to my break down on those chapters and see the points I made there. Address individual points made and tell me how they are not showing a clear picture of the trinity. Especially where ones where Jesus says that he should be honoured as the father is.

You wanted the scriptures you quoted addressed, but after all the time and effort I went to address them you just flag all my points away? Where is the honor and integrity in that?

the scriptures I pointed out to you where Jesus called the Father "my God" )

Well yeah, he would as he was on earth as a human entity. He was existing as a human being. One of US.

even after he returned to heaven (Rev.3:12]

Those verses are all about Jesus doing things that only God could possibly do.

Yet again you grasp one small scripture and yank it out of context. Read the entire chapter and see the messages from Jesus and what Jesus is intending to do. He's going to do things like spit people out of his mouth if they are luke warm. (That's God!), He will not blot out names from the book of life (That's God's job!).

In v7 he talks about doors that can't be opened by men. If he is just a man he can't open it either, but in v8 he says he has! He even says he knows their deeds. How can he know that if he's not God?

In vs 13 he even refers to himself as the Spirit! (The holy spirit).

I've only spent a short time looking at this scripture, but the thing is it's very symbolic in a lot of what it says. But being so symbolic, it could also be considered symbolic when Jesus refers to his god.

, and all of the "being one with God" is explained clearly as merely being united with Him, and in agreement, just as the disciples would be "one" with Jesus and the Father.

We would get into a big debate about what it means to be as one and just how literal this verse is. But one scripture about what may be just unity hardly trumps the other scriptures. If you go back to my breakdown of your scriptures you will see where Jesus speaks as if he really is God.

You skipped right over that. (John 17:20-23)

This scripture was never mentioned in your post 115 which I was responding to when I did my breakdown of your scriptures. How can you say I skipped over a scripture that you never even included?

As it happened I did read that entire chapter because you quoted John 17:3.

You say Jehovah is the "brain" and Jesus is the "hand," or some such configuration. If the hand follows the instructions of the brain, then how is it that they are EQUAL?

I never said they were equal. I said that Jesus was part of Jehovah. In fact if you have read my previous posts you will see there that I agreed completely that Jesus was not equal and that that the father is the head. He is the one that pulls the strings. Jesus is PART of Jehovah. An ASPECT of Jehovah. Being part of and being equal are two different things.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 189 by 2timothy316]




[center]Believing in things that you don't understand.. superstition is the way.[/center]

I think the saying goes, "If you try to explain the Trinity, you will lose your mind. But if you deny it, you will lose your soul."

In other words:

"The Trinity? Oh that.. nobody understands why it's so darn important to us Christians."


Us secular guys like to at least UNDERSTAND what we say we believe.

I think timothy316 was just trying to show that though the trinity is unreasonable and illogical, its adherents still cling to it.

It's exasperating to see this going on.

I am in agreement with you that something we can't understand is not something that we should hang our hats on.

[tam]

[Replying to post 217 by OnceConvinced]

Then you clearly skipped over crucial scriptures. Please go back to my break down on those chapters and see the points I made there. Address individual points made and tell me how they are not showing a clear picture of the trinity.

Is that from post 179?




Peace!

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 191 by ttruscott]

Do you have a scripture for the "three parts of God" theory? The reason I ask is because I can't help but think of Deutronomy 6:4 that says Jehovah (the Father) is ONE God and not one third of ONE.

Q: Why do you think a GOD can only be one thing and not many things as ONE?

How can three people----wait! TWO people; I don't recognize the H.S. as a person---how can two people be one person? They cannot literally be one person! Jehovah and Jesus have a relationship.....a Father-Son relationship. It is a real relationship. They aren't putting on some kind of charade.

Jesus sweated blood because he was so emotionally devastated by the fact that he was going to have to die as a blasphemer in the sight of people who wrongly accused him. Why was he so devastated? Because he deeply loved his Father. He didn't want anyone to think that he had dishonored his Father by claiming to be equal to Him.