For purposes of this OP, God exists and is Omnipotent, and is otherwise as described in the NT.
One of the best fantasy writers of the '70's and 80's, Piers Anthony once quipped,
"God created the universe, Satan caused it to evolve."
Which made a lot of sense to me, when I was a believer. (Back in the '80's.)
So I am thinking a step forward.
Divinely inspired evolution:
We see genes change (like it or not creationists) and this even occurs over your lifetime (that's right, your genetics are not identical to when you were born - in a creationist sense, you are evolving - who knows, some of us might be even be evolving into apes - or is it the other way 'round?).
Anyway, if there is a God who loves us, even allowing for free will, wouldn't his desires for our well-being slowly or very quickly change us into perfect creatures?
God IS omnipotent, (OK God is omnipotent for purposes of this OP), so wouldn't his will, his desires change us, even the world according to what he wants? If he is Omnipotent, and things aren't changing according to his will, why not?
Why or why not? My thesis for this OP is, that since according to the Bible, God wants the best for us, and is all-powerful, the effect of his will upon mankind should dramatically change mankind - genetically, psychologically, or otherwise.
Submitted for your consideration and elaboration.
Divinely inspired evolution
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Post #271
[Replying to post 269 by Willum]
Odd, have you ever considered how they don't? Have you ever taken the Rorschach Inkblot Test? Given an unstructured, ambiguous stimulus, people will read in all sorts of things. However, all this is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I'm concerned about organisms, etc., not random drops of ink thrown on paper.
Odd, have you ever considered how they don't? Have you ever taken the Rorschach Inkblot Test? Given an unstructured, ambiguous stimulus, people will read in all sorts of things. However, all this is irrelevant to the discussion at hand. I'm concerned about organisms, etc., not random drops of ink thrown on paper.
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Willum
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Post #272
[Replying to post 271 by hoghead1]
Yes, I thought that was in my key assumptions!
I guess it does require some explaining...
Pareidolia, the phenomenon you are trying to make this about, and that I am not remotely talking about, is where we perceive images in randomness.
I am not talking about perception.
However, I am talking about given enough randomness, order arises.
Instead of horses and dragons, which don't seem to have captured your imagination - imagine clouds that are box-shaped...
Or the red-square nebula...
Or any crystal...
In any event, given
And yet it happened.
The chances of a cloud looking like a duck are zilch.
And yet it happens, probably every day, many times!
The chances of life arising from random proteins are zilch.
And it only has to happen once!
I think you should avail yourself to the wonders of creation. They don't require intelligence.
Yes, I thought that was in my key assumptions!
I guess it does require some explaining...
Pareidolia, the phenomenon you are trying to make this about, and that I am not remotely talking about, is where we perceive images in randomness.
I am not talking about perception.
However, I am talking about given enough randomness, order arises.
Instead of horses and dragons, which don't seem to have captured your imagination - imagine clouds that are box-shaped...
Or the red-square nebula...
Or any crystal...
In any event, given
The chance of anything as rare as a nebulae forming a horse head shape are zilch.As far as I'm concerned, the chances of something like that happening are zilch. Hence, that appeal to randomness does not explain evolution at all to me.
And yet it happened.
The chances of a cloud looking like a duck are zilch.
And yet it happens, probably every day, many times!
The chances of life arising from random proteins are zilch.
And it only has to happen once!
I think you should avail yourself to the wonders of creation. They don't require intelligence.
Post #273
[Replying to post 272 by Willum]
I'm not sure I follow your point. So let me clarify mine. Maybe that would help. I agree that the chances of such events happening is zilch. Therefore, I don't see how creation can be all some random accident. Where there is complex order, there is an ordering mind, i.e., God.
I'm not sure I follow your point. So let me clarify mine. Maybe that would help. I agree that the chances of such events happening is zilch. Therefore, I don't see how creation can be all some random accident. Where there is complex order, there is an ordering mind, i.e., God.
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Willum
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Post #275
[Replying to post 273 by hoghead1]
In an infinite universe, or a very finite planet, "zilch" happens every moment.
Clouds coalesce to form resplendent dragons.
In a primordial Earth, lifeless chemicals form to become proteins.
Proteins form planar repeating gels.
Those that repeat survive, almost by definition.
The more durable survive better..
From there survival of the fittest, kicks in and eventually, even though the chance is zilch, it has billions of years to occur, trillions and trillions of opportunity to fail, and only needing one to succeed.
Or put another way, let's quantify zilch as 1 in 10 trillion.
10 000 000 000 000.
There are π x 10^7 seconds in a year.
That means in less than 10 million years, zilch is almost assured to occur!
In an infinite universe, or a very finite planet, "zilch" happens every moment.
Clouds coalesce to form resplendent dragons.
In a primordial Earth, lifeless chemicals form to become proteins.
Proteins form planar repeating gels.
Those that repeat survive, almost by definition.
The more durable survive better..
From there survival of the fittest, kicks in and eventually, even though the chance is zilch, it has billions of years to occur, trillions and trillions of opportunity to fail, and only needing one to succeed.
Or put another way, let's quantify zilch as 1 in 10 trillion.
10 000 000 000 000.
There are π x 10^7 seconds in a year.
That means in less than 10 million years, zilch is almost assured to occur!
Last edited by Willum on Wed Apr 05, 2017 8:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Joe1950
Post #276
Does a nebulae look like a horse head? Does a cloud look like a duck?Willum wrote: [Replying to post 271 by hoghead1]
The chance of anything as rare as a nebulae forming a horse head shape are zilch.
And yet it happened.
The chances of a cloud looking like a duck are zilch.
And yet it happens, probably every day, many times!
Or does a horse head look like a nebula and a duck look like a cloud?
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Willum
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Post #277
[Replying to post 276 by Joe1950]
Well, that's a little more deep than I wanted to get into: Are you familiar with the concept of supervenience in the physical sciences?
It is where larger shapes arise because of the properties of their (microscopic?) constituents.
So, as to what you are suggesting: There is a great deal of truth in it.
http://www.science4all.org/article/dyna ... tals-pt-1/
And in many cases it may not only be possible, but true.
Best regards.
Well, that's a little more deep than I wanted to get into: Are you familiar with the concept of supervenience in the physical sciences?
It is where larger shapes arise because of the properties of their (microscopic?) constituents.
So, as to what you are suggesting: There is a great deal of truth in it.
http://www.science4all.org/article/dyna ... tals-pt-1/
And in many cases it may not only be possible, but true.
Best regards.
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Joe1950
Post #278
Of course, when we look at clouds or nebula we are viewing them from one unique perspective. Like the big dipper, which does not really exist as any grouping of stars but just seems to have a pattern from our perspective. The stars of the big dipper are 80 light years, 100 light years and over 123 light years away. They only seem to form a pattern from Earth.Willum wrote: [Replying to post 276 by Joe1950]
Well, that's a little more deep than I wanted to get into: Are you familiar with the concept of supervenience in the physical sciences?
It is where larger shapes arise because of the properties of their (microscopic?) constituents.
So, as to what you are suggesting: There is a great deal of truth in it.
http://www.science4all.org/article/dyna ... tals-pt-1/
And in many cases it may not only be possible, but true.
Best regards.
As far as clouds are concerned the patterns are ephemeral and again only exist in the way our brain arranges the images.
However, I once sliced into a purple skinned onion and on the inside emerged the perfect vision of the face of Michaelangelo, one of the Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles. That must have some cosmic meaning which I have yet to discover.
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Willum
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Post #279
[Replying to post 278 by Joe1950]
So, again, I am not speaking about Pareidolia. Or perception, but where the micro represents the macro.
For example, water due to it's geometry, freezes in a hexagonal structure at the micro level, which forms snowflakes at the macro-level. Both with hexagonal symmetry.
Another example is a cell vs organism. A cell respirates, eats, has specialized functions, excretes waste, etc.. The organism that is made up of the cell also eats, excretes, etc..
The idea that clouds form images and patterns, is not important for the shape they make, but how unlikely it is that it forms the shape.
Though, not likely in the case of a nebulae, it is entirely possible horses are occasionally shaped the same as clouds because they are both made of water...
Folks say it is just too unlikely for life to form on its own, but how likely is it for any particular geometry to form in a cloud?
Given enough time, randomness will form any shape out of water vapor.
Given enough time, randomness will form proteins, and from proteins the stuff of life.
So, again, I am not speaking about Pareidolia. Or perception, but where the micro represents the macro.
For example, water due to it's geometry, freezes in a hexagonal structure at the micro level, which forms snowflakes at the macro-level. Both with hexagonal symmetry.
Another example is a cell vs organism. A cell respirates, eats, has specialized functions, excretes waste, etc.. The organism that is made up of the cell also eats, excretes, etc..
The idea that clouds form images and patterns, is not important for the shape they make, but how unlikely it is that it forms the shape.
Though, not likely in the case of a nebulae, it is entirely possible horses are occasionally shaped the same as clouds because they are both made of water...
Folks say it is just too unlikely for life to form on its own, but how likely is it for any particular geometry to form in a cloud?
Given enough time, randomness will form any shape out of water vapor.
Given enough time, randomness will form proteins, and from proteins the stuff of life.
Post #280
[Replying to post 275 by Willum]
No, I don't agree with that at all. All those probability estimates come from God knows where and vary all over the place. Plus, novelty and complexity are continually happening at a rate beyond what mere chance would allow. A long time ago, scientist thought life was only on earth, something very rare. However, today, it's much different. Science is open to the possibility that life, especially intelligent life, can exist throughout the universe.
Moment to moment, evolution is happening. Each moment your and I are new persons, unique. So there is far more in operation here than just mere chance or some sort of rare accident. The only logical explanation I can find for all this, is that there is a transcendental imagination continually at work.
No, I don't agree with that at all. All those probability estimates come from God knows where and vary all over the place. Plus, novelty and complexity are continually happening at a rate beyond what mere chance would allow. A long time ago, scientist thought life was only on earth, something very rare. However, today, it's much different. Science is open to the possibility that life, especially intelligent life, can exist throughout the universe.
Moment to moment, evolution is happening. Each moment your and I are new persons, unique. So there is far more in operation here than just mere chance or some sort of rare accident. The only logical explanation I can find for all this, is that there is a transcendental imagination continually at work.
