The purpose of Jesus' miracles

Justin108 · Post by **Justin108** » Thu Apr 20, 2017 9:52 am

What was the purpose of Jesus' miracles?

a) To help people.

While this might explain some miracles, such as healing the sick and feeding the hungry, other miracles just seem unnecessary. Why turn water into wine? Was it necessary? Or did Jesus just want to be the life of the party?

If Jesus did perform these miracles to help people, why are such miracles not nearly as common today? Jesus found it important enough to intervene at a wedding that had no booze, but he won't intervene to feed starving children in Africa?

b) To prove his divinity.

If Jesus went out of his way to prove his divinity 2000 years ago when people were generally far less skeptic and far more gullible than they are today, why is it that Jesus no longer does so today? Why was proof of divinity appropriate 2000 years ago but not today? Back then we had proof. Today we need to have faith. Why the inconsistency?

c) Other (please elaborate)

Derrrpp · Post by **Derrrpp** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 8:06 am

[Replying to post 30 by marco]

I measure that: Adam and Eve step into the land of Choices at the advice of Satan. Once the sons and daughters are removed from the direct actionable presence of God then I expect a normal distribution of choices from them. A normal distribution includes accusers and betrayers and people who wash your feet with their hair. Having observed this normal distribution of people making choices does not need to cause God to reprogram Jesus' methodology IMO. Im still thinking on my conclusion but my guess is that Judas and Jews were trying to use Jesus. Thank you- how and why they are doing that will be an interesting story.

Monta · Post by **Monta** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 9:14 am

marco wrote:
Derrrpp wrote: [Replying to post 28 by marco]

Marco is the testing this statement leads to x conclusion debate available on another thread that I can review?

I will take a wild stab at what your question intends to ask. You want to know about how one tests the statement that God used Judas and the Jews to fulfil his plan.

Scenario: God was offended by Adam. Adam messed things up for everyone. Something had to be done to put things right, and sacrificing a nice bull wasn't good enough. The answer was to have an incarnate God sacrifice himself for the sake of humankind and this would right the primal wrong and redeem man, allowing the locked gates of Paradise to bee opened. Jesus worked the incidental miracle to alert people to heaven's collaboration.

Instrumental in carrying out this plan were the betrayer and the accusers. The plan worked because they were put in it.

That seems to be the hypothesis and its flaw is that God is using and abusing people in order to carry out his redemption plan. ERGO, the hypothesis is flawed.

Nonsensical musings. Very hard debating these things if we haven't read the Sacred Scripture or any serious Theology.

marco · Post by **marco** » Sat Apr 29, 2017 2:19 pm

Derrrpp wrote:
Im still thinking on my conclusion but my guess is that Judas and Jews were trying to use Jesus. Thank you- how and why they are doing that will be an interesting story.

What they were trying to do is irrelevant. Their actions facilitated God's plan. It seems unlikely that Satan would also help God. God used people to get his job done and in using them he brought down misery on them. The alternative is to discard the hypothesis of a redemption plan.

Derrrpp · Post by **Derrrpp** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:36 pm

[Replying to post 33 by marco]

Im sorry I cant follow you on that because the purpose of the miracles would have been to maximize the impact on the shape of the distribution prior to the crucifixion. That was the absolute moral thing to do upon coming and use of the maximal force to be applied....God would really have to be super-duper beyond intelligent to figure out how to use them as they were and then trying with the greatest tool (miracle) at the same time to really change their minds. I was, in the interim, thinking of the miracles that followed the Exodus where God had to reprove that He would do such things after leaving them in Egypt past their memories and whether similar events happened after the Babylonian captivity....how it all ties together I mean, but I wont get to it until my commutes this week.

Danmark · Post by **Danmark** » Sun Apr 30, 2017 11:55 pm

Derrrpp wrote: [Replying to post 33 by marco]

Im sorry I cant follow you on that because the purpose of the miracles would have been to maximize the impact on the shape of the distribution prior to the crucifixion. That was the absolute moral thing to do upon coming and use of the maximal force to be applied....God would really have to be super-duper beyond intelligent to figure out how to use them as they were and then trying with the greatest tool (miracle) at the same time to really change their minds. I was, in the interim, thinking of the miracles that followed the Exodus where God had to reprove that He would do such things after leaving them in Egypt past their memories and whether similar events happened after the Babylonian captivity....how it all ties together I mean, but I wont get to it until my commutes this week.

This 'argument' I find incomprehensible. What do you mean by "the purpose of the miracles would have been to maximize the impact on the shape of the distribution prior to the crucifixion?" Would you please state your claim in comprehensible English. I am completely baffled by "God had to reprove that He would do such things after leaving them in Egypt past their memories and . . . ."

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Mon May 01, 2017 4:55 am

Derrrpp wrote: [Replying to post 33 by marco]

Im sorry I cant follow you on that because the purpose of the miracles would have been to maximize the impact on the shape of the distribution prior to the crucifixion. That was the absolute moral thing to do upon coming and use of the maximal force to be applied....God would really have to be super-duper beyond intelligent to figure out how to use them as they were and then trying with the greatest tool (miracle) at the same time to really change their minds. I was, in the interim, thinking of the miracles that followed the Exodus where God had to reprove that He would do such things after leaving them in Egypt past their memories and whether similar events happened after the Babylonian captivity....how it all ties together I mean, but I wont get to it until my commutes this week.

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marco · Post by **marco** » Mon May 01, 2017 6:08 am

Derrrpp wrote:
Im sorry I cant follow you on that because the purpose of the miracles would have been to maximize the impact on the shape of the distribution prior to the crucifixion.

I assume you are referring to a Normal Distribution curve where we have those that believe on one side and the non-believers on the other. Miracles would push more folk into the believers' side. I don't know why you choose this format of explanation and I don't believe your statistical assumptions are correct. Most of the then world population would not have been involved with the miracles and if you're referring to the local area, then a vast body of people didn't believe at all.

But yes, miracles might be a good way of showing a divine passport if they are well documented and there is no possibility of any alternative explanation. 2000 years away, we cannot authenticate them. If God was trying to show something, he didn't do very well.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Mon May 01, 2017 9:30 pm

Monta wrote:

Nonsensical musings. Very hard debating these things if we haven't read the Sacred Scripture or any serious Theology.

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Derrrpp · Post by **Derrrpp** » Mon May 01, 2017 10:34 pm

[Replying to post 37 by marco]
Yes I used it to describe a general population of any size at any time- composed of individual choices of attitude. Thus At no special time can God circumvent the betrayers and accusers that are the victims of your interpretation. The only way to possibly avoid your accusation is in fact to perform miracles(the big game changers) to disrupt and change peoples attitudes prior to the final acts of Judas and the Jews in Jesus' life -which is the solidification of their victimization according to your hypothesis-but a consequence of choices in my version.

I retract my comparison comments regarding the miracles of Exodus- those occur to reestablish the link of God acting on their behalf after having endured captivity and lack of action (punishment) for so long. The Jesus miracles may occur for different reasons.

As to the use of disciples to communicate and spread the word worldwide and the general localized effects of miracles I have no answer to this criticism at this time.