Are the Caesars the true saviors of Israel?

[Willum]

Isaiah 9: 6-7 seems to describe Augustus:

6 For to us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end. He will reign on Davids throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this.


This seems to exactly describe Caesar Augustus, as the adoptive son of Caesar.
Augustus always complained about the burden of government on his shoulders.
He never wanted to be considered anything more than a counselor. He was made a mighty god, and "everlasting father," and "prince of peace," have certainly become true with the rule of Roman law, we still use, and the Pax Romana, 1000 years of peace, impossible without him.
He reigned on David's throne "Palestine is my footstool."
And the zeal of Yaweh, spelled Iove seems to enforce this.


While Isaiah 53 seems to describe Tiberius Caesar, exactly:

53 Who has believed our message?
To whom has the arm of Yahweh been revealed?
2
For he grew up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of dry ground.
He has no good looks or majesty. When we see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.
3
He was despised, and rejected by men; a man of suffering,and acquainted with disease.
He was despised as one from whom men hide their face; and we didnt respect him.

4
Surely he has borne our sickness, and carried our suffering; yet we considered him plagued, struck by God, and afflicted.
5
But he was pierced for our transgressions. He was crushed for our iniquities.
The punishment that brought our peace was on him; and by his wounds we are healed.
6
All we like sheep have gone astray. Everyone has turned to his own way; and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.
7
He was oppressed, yet when he was afflicted he didnt open his mouth.
As a lamb that is led to the slaughter, and as a sheep that before its shearers is silent,
so he didnt open his mouth.
8
He was taken away by oppression and judgment; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living and stricken for the disobedience of my people?
9
They made his grave with the wicked, and with a rich man in his death; although he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10
Yet it pleased Yahweh to bruise him.
He has caused him to suffer.
When you make his soul an offering for sin, he will see his offspring.
He will prolong his days, and Yahwehs pleasure will prosper in his hand.
11
After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light and be satisfied.
My righteous servant will justify many by the knowledge of himself; and he will bear their iniquities.
12
Therefore will I give him a portion with the great, and he will divide the plunder with the strong; because he poured out his soul to death, and was numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.

These seems to describe Caesar Tiberius, afflicted in the face as he was, exiled as he was, as reviled as he was, passiveness of being led off to Rhodes, his royal whining, and the slaughter that occurred after his death.

[JehovahsWitness]

So where what are the prophesies of Daniel, about Empires fallen, not transcribed until after the fact?

Daniel Chapter 11.


JW

[Willum]

[Replying to post 31 by JehovahsWitness]

Thanks, but the Book of D. was written in 2nd century BC, long after events they predicted. And when it was transcribed to Greek, there were additions made...

But still, we have Isaiah predicting the Caesars, and that is frankly fascinating.

Maybe it was a human addition that the prophesies would be from the house of David, maybe God isn't a racial supremest and it is OK for the leader of the world to be the savior of the world with the NT.

Or, maybe Augustus' grandmother was from the house of David. So many possibilities annexed to the fact that Isaiah describes them so well.

Or perhaps there is another explanation. Maybe Isaiah was also somehow written after the fact?!

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 31 by JehovahsWitness]

Thanks, but the Book of D. was written in 2nd century BC, long after events they predicted.

And what events pray tell is Daniel chapter 11 predicting?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 33 by JehovahsWitness]

Wouldn't that be a more important question for you to answer...?
I get the feeling no matter my response, it will be wrong.

Anyway, Daniel is not the point here.

Now that we've concluded the Caesars are excellent contenders for Isaiah, what does this mean?

[rikuoamero]

Jews wandered around alot - there's no saying that the Caesars aren't descended from David, since genetics are so important to God. Maybe from the lost tribe, maybe from dalliance with a tradesman.

During the times of the Cesars the Jews kept meticulous records of their heritage because it was necessary for their temple system of worshp and of course it would be necessary even by their own traditions for any Messiah claimant to be able to prove their heritage.

After the 6th century BCE exile, families had to prove their heritage, records were kept in the temple and each family probably had their own records, as well those kept in the local synagogues. The Jews were very strict about not intermarrying with foreigners, so the changes of a Cesar being able to prove he was in fact a desdendant of David is pretty much zero.

Is this to say that there was no chance at all of someone faking being a descendant of David? Is this to say that even after the conquest and exile to Babylon, such family records were kept, with a chain of custody so trustworthy that modern day judges would feel green with envy?

As for the Jews being strict about marriages with foreigners...what about Rahab, for example? What about the women the soldiers under Joshua were told 'to keep for yourselves', after swarming in and killing all their relatives?

[Willum]

[Replying to post 35 by rikuoamero]

So, what about the premise - that Isaiah describes Caesars bettr'n Saviours?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 35 by rikuoamero]

So, what about the premise - that Isaiah describes Caesars bettr'n Saviours?

I can't rule it out. Having examined what I can, I honestly cannot rule out Isaiah describing the Caesars.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 37 by rikuoamero]

So the follow-on question would be:

WHY do the prophesy of the Bible describe the Caesars?

[rikuoamero]

Jews wandered around alot - there's no saying that the Caesars aren't descended from David, since genetics are so important to God. Maybe from the lost tribe, maybe from dalliance with a tradesman.

During the times of the Cesars the Jews kept meticulous records of their heritage because it was necessary for their temple system of worshp and of course it would be necessary even by their own traditions for any Messiah claimant to be able to prove their heritage.

After the 6th century BCE exile, families had to prove their heritage, records were kept in the temple and each family probably had their own records, as well those kept in the local synagogues. The Jews were very strict about not intermarrying with foreigners, so the changes of a Cesar being able to prove he was in fact a desdendant of David is pretty much zero.

Is this to say that there was no chance at all of someone faking being a descendant of David? Is this to say that even after the conquest and exile to Babylon, such family records were kept, with a chain of custody so trustworthy that modern day judges would feel green with envy?

As for the Jews being strict about marriages with foreigners...what about Rahab, for example? What about the women the soldiers under Joshua were told 'to keep for yourselves', after swarming in and killing all their relatives?

I notice that JW never replied to this challenge regarding Jews and their recordkeeping.

[tam]

[Replying to post 35 by rikuoamero]

So, what about the premise - that Isaiah describes Caesars bettr'n Saviours?

I can't rule it out. Having examined what I can, I honestly cannot rule out Isaiah describing the Caesars.

Really?

Then perhaps you could answer the questions I asked in post 19? Willum did not answer them.

(and perhaps also the additional questions/comments/contradictions brought out in post 22 and 24)



Peace again to you!