JWs consider God's Kingdom to be a Government

[JehovahsWitness]

Jehovah's Witnesses believe God's Kingdom for which many Christians have prayed throughout the ages to be a (heavenly) government (three words).

What, in three or four words if possible, do you believe it to be?

(Many Christians I have met have said its "A feeling" (in one's heart).

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 67 by onewithhim]

Please explain how you see the Kingdom as presently in a "growth stage."

I am happy to do so, but for now I prefer that you, please, reread what Jesus had to say about that, in Matthew 13.

He indicated that the Kingdom would be instituted "at the harvest time," or, "the end of the age." (Matt.13:30,40) That is when he would return in full Kingdom power and his own government will take over the world. "Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father." (v.43)

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 68 by Checkpoint]

So Jehovah's Witnesses say God's kingdom is a governmental system of rulership and you say we are on "shakey ground" and then go on to say that God's is indeed a system of rulership and Jesus has a government.

Is that about right?

What is, imo "about right", are these statements I have posted on this thread:

The kingdom is both present and future.

It is where God and His family are, where God reigns with them and how they live together.

The kingdom of God is the reign of God.

This takes place whenever a situation exists in which God's will is being done on earth as it is in heaven.

No kingdom is merely its government.

That should be self-evident, surely.

I have already said the kingdom is not a "system of rulership", as if that is all it is.

The JW take on this is on very shaky ground.

"The JW take" is what I instanced, in which details are outlined.

Such as those about a limited number "reigning" over others and separated from them, and this "rulership" or "government", is only in the future, not now.

Those and associated matters are, in my opinion, "on very shaky ground"

Jesus has a government, the kingdom is a system of rulership and they are both directly related. Is it conceivable that they are in fact be one and the same thing? If not why?

Anything is conceivable, as can be seen by browsing on this forum.

Maybe, maybe not, this time I prefer not to venture an opinion.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 68 by Checkpoint]

So Jehovah's Witnesses say God's kingdom is a governmental system of rulership and you say we are on "shakey ground" and then go on to say that God's is indeed a system of rulership and Jesus has a government.

Is that about right?

What is, imo "about right", are these statements I have posted on this thread:

The kingdom is both present and future.

It is where God and His family are, where God reigns with them and how they live together.

The kingdom of God is the reign of God.

This takes place whenever a situation exists in which God's will is being done on earth as it is in heaven.

No kingdom is merely its government.

That should be self-evident, surely.

I have already said the kingdom is not a "system of rulership", as if that is all it is.

The JW take on this is on very shaky ground.

"The JW take" is what I instanced, in which details are outlined.

Such as those about a limited number "reigning" over others and separated from them, and this "rulership" or "government", is only in the future, not now.

Those and associated matters are, in my opinion, "on very shaky ground"

Jesus has a government, the kingdom is a system of rulership and they are both directly related. Is it conceivable that they are in fact be one and the same thing? If not why?

Anything is conceivable, as can be seen by browsing on this forum.

Maybe, maybe not, this time I prefer not to venture an opinion.

I had asked you to comment on Isaiah 9:6a,7 and Daniel 2:44, which look to me like they are describing a literal government which will influence the whole world, eliminating all governments of men. How do you explain those two scriptures?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 67 by onewithhim]

Please explain how you see the Kingdom as presently in a "growth stage."

I am happy to do so, but for now I prefer that you, please, reread what Jesus had to say about that, in Matthew 13.

He indicated that the Kingdom would be instituted "at the harvest time," or, "the end of the age." (Matt.13:30,40) That is when he would return in full Kingdom power and his own government will take over the world. "Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father." (v.43)

If he has "full kingdom power" at his return, what is his position in this age?

Half kingdom power? No kingdom power?

Are you saying Jesus is not yet a king, and has no kingdom until he returns?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 73 by onewithhim]

I had asked you to comment on Isaiah 9:6a,7 and Daniel 2:44, which look to me like they are describing a literal government which will influence the whole world, eliminating all governments of men. How do you explain those two scriptures?

I thought that was Jw, not you...but never mind.

I read the Isaiah passage as conveyng that Jesus would be king from birth into eternity.

Daniel, however, seems to focus on the kingdom in its eternal aspect, on what happens at and as a result of the seventh and last trumpet.

As in Revelation 11:15-18.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 67 by onewithhim]

Please explain how you see the Kingdom as presently in a "growth stage."

I am happy to do so, but for now I prefer that you, please, reread what Jesus had to say about that, in Matthew 13.

He indicated that the Kingdom would be instituted "at the harvest time," or, "the end of the age." (Matt.13:30,40) That is when he would return in full Kingdom power and his own government will take over the world. "Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father." (v.43)

If he has "full kingdom power" at his return, what is his position in this age?

Half kingdom power? No kingdom power?

Are you saying Jesus is not yet a king, and has no kingdom until he returns?

No, we believe that he assumed his Kingdom power in 1914, as evidenced by the world going mad and launching WWI, good sign that Jesus had indeed taken his power and began ruling as King and had thrown Satan out of heaven. (Revelation 11:7-12)

He is first attending to the preaching work that is to be done before "the end." When this is accomplished and the end comes, then he will take FULL possession of the Earth, which, obviously, he has not done yet.

.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 73 by onewithhim]

I had asked you to comment on Isaiah 9:6a,7 and Daniel 2:44, which look to me like they are describing a literal government which will influence the whole world, eliminating all governments of men. How do you explain those two scriptures?

I thought that was Jw, not you...but never mind.

I read the Isaiah passage as conveyng that Jesus would be king from birth into eternity.

Daniel, however, seems to focus on the kingdom in its eternal aspect, on what happens at and as a result of the seventh and last trumpet.

As in Revelation 11:15-18.

So you are of the opinion that the Kingdom has always been in operation, since Jesus was born on Earth? Please tell me how this government by Christ could be in operation before he was even actually seated on the throne of this government. For a government to be in operation, there has to be someone who is mature and qualified for the job heading it up, wouldn't you say?

And there seemed to be a certain time frame in which the Kingdom would start influencing the world, according to the account of the immense image of Daniel chapter 2. The Kingdom would hit the image in the feet, suggesting that it would take power after all the governments of the earth that had been involved with persecuting God's people would be incapacitated. Look it up on the Web by typing "Image of Daniel chapter 2." www.jw.org has an article on it too, if you care to click on www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/study- ... 5e&insight[search_result

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 67 by onewithhim]

Please explain how you see the Kingdom as presently in a "growth stage."

I am happy to do so, but for now I prefer that you, please, reread what Jesus had to say about that, in Matthew 13.

He indicated that the Kingdom would be instituted "at the harvest time," or, "the end of the age." (Matt.13:30,40) That is when he would return in full Kingdom power and his own government will take over the world. "Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father." (v.43)

If he has "full kingdom power" at his return, what is his position in this age?

Half kingdom power? No kingdom power?

Are you saying Jesus is not yet a king, and has no kingdom until he returns?

No, we believe that he assumed his Kingdom power in 1914, as evidenced by the world going mad and launching WWI, good sign that Jesus had indeed taken his power and began ruling as King and had thrown Satan out of heaven. (Revelation 11:7-12)

He is first attending to the preaching work that is to be done before "the end." When this is accomplished and the end comes, then he will take FULL possession of the Earth, which, obviously, he has not done yet.

.

Was Jesus king before "he assumed his kingdom power in 1914"?

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 73 by onewithhim]

I had asked you to comment on Isaiah 9:6a,7 and Daniel 2:44, which look to me like they are describing a literal government which will influence the whole world, eliminating all governments of men. How do you explain those two scriptures?

I thought that was Jw, not you...but never mind.

I read the Isaiah passage as conveyng that Jesus would be king from birth into eternity.

Daniel, however, seems to focus on the kingdom in its eternal aspect, on what happens at and as a result of the seventh and last trumpet.

As in Revelation 11:15-18.

So you are of the opinion that the Kingdom has always been in operation, since Jesus was born on Earth? Please tell me how this government by Christ could be in operation before he was even actually seated on the throne of this government. For a government to be in operation, there has to be someone who is mature and qualified for the job heading it up, wouldn't you say?

And there seemed to be a certain time frame in which the Kingdom would start influencing the world, according to the account of the immense image of Daniel chapter 2. The Kingdom would hit the image in the feet, suggesting that it would take power after all the governments of the earth that had been involved with persecuting God's people would be incapacitated. Look it up on the Web by typing "Image of Daniel chapter 2." www.jw.org has an article on it too, if you care to click on www.jw.org/en/publications/bible/study- ... 5e&insight[search_result

When did Jesus first become "actually seated on the throne"?

When did he become "mature and qualified for the job"?

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 67 by onewithhim]

Please explain how you see the Kingdom as presently in a "growth stage."

I am happy to do so, but for now I prefer that you, please, reread what Jesus had to say about that, in Matthew 13.

He indicated that the Kingdom would be instituted "at the harvest time," or, "the end of the age." (Matt.13:30,40) That is when he would return in full Kingdom power and his own government will take over the world. "Then the righteous will shine forth as the sun in the Kingdom of their Father." (v.43)

If he has "full kingdom power" at his return, what is his position in this age?

Half kingdom power? No kingdom power?

Are you saying Jesus is not yet a king, and has no kingdom until he returns?

No, we believe that he assumed his Kingdom power in 1914, as evidenced by the world going mad and launching WWI, good sign that Jesus had indeed taken his power and began ruling as King and had thrown Satan out of heaven. (Revelation 11:7-12)

He is first attending to the preaching work that is to be done before "the end." When this is accomplished and the end comes, then he will take FULL possession of the Earth, which, obviously, he has not done yet.

.

Was Jesus king before "he assumed his kingdom power in 1914"?

I would say yes, because he was Jehovah's designated King for a long time. When in front of Pilate, Pilate asked him if he was a king, and he said, "You say correctly that I am a king." (John 18:37, NASB)


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