JESUS IS NOT YHWH

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Sat May 06, 2017 3:07 pm

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?

I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

Faber · Post by **Faber** » Sun May 07, 2017 9:38 pm

Yes, they are both God.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Sun May 07, 2017 9:39 pm

Faber wrote: Yes, they are both God.

OK, then why does it say at I Corinthians 11:3 that "the HEAD of Christ is God"?

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Faber · Post by **Faber** » Sun May 07, 2017 9:42 pm

I am the head of my wife (1 Corinthians 11:3). That doesn't make her ontologically any less of a person than me.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Sun May 07, 2017 9:55 pm

Faber wrote: I am the head of my wife (1 Corinthians 11:3). That doesn't make her ontologically any less of a person than me.

The point of the I Corinth.11:3, as I see it, is that there is a head, or, a superior authority, that has the right to the last word, the final decision....in case there is a disagreement of sorts. The man is given that authority over his wife; Christ is the authority over the congregation; God is the authority over Christ. They are NOT all equal in authority.

Therefore, God and Christ are not equal.

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Faber · Post by **Faber** » Sun May 07, 2017 9:59 pm

Functional subjection does not necessitate ontological inferiority.

That supreme worship is properly ascribed to the Father and to the Lord Jesus demonstrates that the Lord Jesus is God. In fact, just one prayer (He properly receives many) to the Lord Jesus demonstrates that He is omniscient (God).

McCulloch · Post by **McCulloch** » Sun May 07, 2017 10:46 pm

onewithhim wrote:OK, then why does it say at I Corinthians 11:3 that "the HEAD of Christ is God"?

Faber wrote:I am the head of my wife (1 Corinthians 11:3). That doesn't make her ontologically any less of a person than me.

Paul is not using Trinitarian language. If he was, he would have said that the Father is the head of Christ. But he said that the head of Christ is God, not God, the Father. This head metaphor makes no sense whatsoever if Christ is God.

Faber · Post by **Faber** » Mon May 08, 2017 12:20 am

McCulloch wrote:
onewithhim wrote:OK, then why does it say at I Corinthians 11:3 that "the HEAD of Christ is God"?

Faber wrote:I am the head of my wife (1 Corinthians 11:3). That doesn't make her ontologically any less of a person than me.
Paul is not using Trinitarian language. If he was, he would have said that the Father is the head of Christ. But he said that the head of Christ is God, not God, the Father. This head metaphor makes no sense whatsoever if Christ is God.

Paul is using Trinitarian language. Theos primarily (although not exclusively) refers to the Father while "kyrios" primarily (although not exclusively) refers to the Lord Jesus.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Mon May 08, 2017 10:56 am

Faber wrote: Functional subjection does not necessitate ontological inferiority.

That supreme worship is properly ascribed to the Father and to the Lord Jesus demonstrates that the Lord Jesus is God. In fact, just one prayer (He properly receives many) to the Lord Jesus demonstrates that He is omniscient (God).

Then, using your logic, a husband is God also.

"But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of the Christ." (I Corinthians 11:3, NASB)

If you can use that verse to prove that Christ is God because both are "heads" , then you will have to admit that a husband is God as well.

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Willum · Post by **Willum** » Mon May 08, 2017 1:16 pm

According to Gnostic scriptures, at least SOME Gnostic scriptures, there was a being above "God," called the demiurge, perhaps this is the being to whom Jesus prayed, and the meaning has become blurred.

Donray · Post by **Donray** » Mon May 08, 2017 1:37 pm

From https://www.jwfacts.com/watchtower/worship-jesus.php

Jehovah's Witnesses worshipped Jesus until 1954, after which they were told such worship was idolatrous. This made them a polytheistic religion for most of their history. The core to religion is God, and to change the God you worship is to change the very essence and basis of the religion.

So originally JWs worshiped two gods.