Luke 24:52
And they, after worshiping Him, returned to Jerusalem with great joy (NASB)
Watchtower Documents: "THEY WORSHIPED HIM"
Although our Lord taught us to worship the Father in spirit and in truth, and again to pray, "Our Father which art in heaven," and although the Apostle said, "I bow my knees to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," (Eph. 3:14), nevertheless the general sentiment of Scripture seems to imply that there will be nothing wrong in our addressing a petition to our Lord Jesus direct if any so desire at any time. As the head of the body it is but the appropriate thing that, as every member of the natural body makes known its desires, its petitions, to its own head, so the Church, the body of Christ, should be permitted to address him, and thus we read in our lesson that the apostles worshiped the ascended Jesus--they recognized his greatness and dignity and honor as the Messiah, the Son of the living God, the Redeemer of the world, who in due time shall come and receive his faithful to himself and establish his Kingdom for the blessing of the world. The Lord's own words are appropriate here: he says, "That all men should honor the Son even as they honor the Father."--John 5:23 (Volume 27, January 1, 1906; see R3911: page 397).
http://www.a2z.org/wtarchive/docs/1906_Watch_Tower.pdf
Why do Jehovah's Witnesses teach that the Lord Jesus is not to be worshiped when the citation above clearly affirms the opposite?
Jehovah's Witnesses: Worship Jesus (Luke 24:52)
Moderator: Moderators
Post #2
The NT Greek word for worship (proskuneo) and the OT Hebrew word for worship (shachah) had different levels of meaning.
The Greek word proskuneo (or proskyneo) is defined in the 1971 United Bible Societies' A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, p. 154: "[Proskuneo] worship; fall down and worship, kneel, bow low, fall at another's feet."
Even trinitarian W. E. Vine writes in his An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 1247:
"PROSKUNEO ... to make obeisance, do reverence to (from pros, towards, and kuneo, to kiss), is the most frequent word rendered 'to worship'. It is used for an act of homage or reverence (a) to God ...; (b) to Christ ...; (c) to a man, Matt. 18:26." ("Obeisance," of course, shows "respect, submission, or reverence" - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, 1961.)
Noted Bible scholar J. H. Thayer defines proskuneo:
"prop. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence ... hence in the N. T. by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication. It is used a. of homage shown to men of superior rank [position] ... Rev. 3:9 .... b. of homage rendered to God and the ascended Christ, to heavenly beings [angels]" - p. 548, Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Baker Book House Publ., 1977.
The act described by proskuneo (or shachah in Hebrew) was of bowing or kneeling, and it generally indicated an act of respect and a display of one's willingness to submit to or serve another person who occupied a superior position. It was done, of course, in its very highest sense to God alone, but it was also done, in a lower sense of the same word, to kings, angels, prophets, etc. That is why proskuneo is translated "prostrated himself before" at Matt. 18:26 NASB, even though the KJV uses "worship" there. Notice how other trinitarian translations render that verse (RSV and NIV for example) where a servant "worships" [proskuneo] his master. And that is why, in the account of the man blind from birth whom Jesus healed, we see that man giving proskuneo to Jesus at John 9:38. The ASV, in a footnote for John 9:38, says,
"The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to a creature, as here [Jesus], or to the Creator."
Proskuneo (and shachah) is given to a person who (1) represents someone else in a position of higher authority or (2) occupies a position of higher authority himself (e.g., a king). Sometimes, of course, we may find a person who may receive shachah/proskuneo for both of these reasons. 1 Chron. 29:20 tells us, "And all the assembly blessed Jehovah, the God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads and worshipped [shachah] Jehovah and the king [David]." - ASV - cf. Septuagint (proskuneo). The highest position of authority, of course, is that occupied by God (the Father, Jehovah, who alone is Most High - Ps. 83:18 - and who alone deserves worship [in the most high sense of that word].)
As for John 5:23, see my study of this verse at
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... st-as.html
The Greek word proskuneo (or proskyneo) is defined in the 1971 United Bible Societies' A Concise Greek-English Dictionary of the New Testament, p. 154: "[Proskuneo] worship; fall down and worship, kneel, bow low, fall at another's feet."
Even trinitarian W. E. Vine writes in his An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, p. 1247:
"PROSKUNEO ... to make obeisance, do reverence to (from pros, towards, and kuneo, to kiss), is the most frequent word rendered 'to worship'. It is used for an act of homage or reverence (a) to God ...; (b) to Christ ...; (c) to a man, Matt. 18:26." ("Obeisance," of course, shows "respect, submission, or reverence" - Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary, 1961.)
Noted Bible scholar J. H. Thayer defines proskuneo:
"prop. to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence ... hence in the N. T. by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication. It is used a. of homage shown to men of superior rank [position] ... Rev. 3:9 .... b. of homage rendered to God and the ascended Christ, to heavenly beings [angels]" - p. 548, Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, Baker Book House Publ., 1977.
The act described by proskuneo (or shachah in Hebrew) was of bowing or kneeling, and it generally indicated an act of respect and a display of one's willingness to submit to or serve another person who occupied a superior position. It was done, of course, in its very highest sense to God alone, but it was also done, in a lower sense of the same word, to kings, angels, prophets, etc. That is why proskuneo is translated "prostrated himself before" at Matt. 18:26 NASB, even though the KJV uses "worship" there. Notice how other trinitarian translations render that verse (RSV and NIV for example) where a servant "worships" [proskuneo] his master. And that is why, in the account of the man blind from birth whom Jesus healed, we see that man giving proskuneo to Jesus at John 9:38. The ASV, in a footnote for John 9:38, says,
"The Greek word [proskuneo] denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to a creature, as here [Jesus], or to the Creator."
Proskuneo (and shachah) is given to a person who (1) represents someone else in a position of higher authority or (2) occupies a position of higher authority himself (e.g., a king). Sometimes, of course, we may find a person who may receive shachah/proskuneo for both of these reasons. 1 Chron. 29:20 tells us, "And all the assembly blessed Jehovah, the God of their fathers, and bowed down their heads and worshipped [shachah] Jehovah and the king [David]." - ASV - cf. Septuagint (proskuneo). The highest position of authority, of course, is that occupied by God (the Father, Jehovah, who alone is Most High - Ps. 83:18 - and who alone deserves worship [in the most high sense of that word].)
As for John 5:23, see my study of this verse at
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... st-as.html
Post #3
In Luke 24:52 proskyne is properly rendered unto to the Lord Jesus when He was not in the physical presence of those doing so - in all other such cases as in the Old Testament when it is rendered unto others besides God it is done so before the recipient (cf. Genesis 19:1; 23:7; Exodus 18:7; 2 Kings 2:15).
1. Adam Clarke: Let it be observed that this worship was not given by way of civil respect, for it was after he was parted from them, and carried back into heaven, that they offered it to him; but acts of civil respect are always performed in the presence of the person. They adored him as their God, and were certainly too much enlightened to be capable of any species of idolatry.
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/acc/luke-24.html
1. Adam Clarke: Let it be observed that this worship was not given by way of civil respect, for it was after he was parted from them, and carried back into heaven, that they offered it to him; but acts of civil respect are always performed in the presence of the person. They adored him as their God, and were certainly too much enlightened to be capable of any species of idolatry.
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/acc/luke-24.html
Post #4
These two Greek phrases are disputed and considered spurious by some trinitarian scholars.
Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament:
Luke 24:
Verse 51
"He parted from them (- " dieste ap' auton). Second aorist active (intransitive) indicative of - " diistemi He stood apart ( " dia) and he was gone. Some manuscripts do not have the words 'and was carried into heaven'.
Verse 52
"Worshipped him (- " proskunesantes auton). Here again we have one of Westcott and Horts Western non-interpolations that may be genuine or not."
Compare ASV footnotes for those same phrases in Luke 24.
............................
The United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament gives the phrase rendered "and was carried up into heaven" in verse 51 a 'D' rating. This is their very lowest rating of reliability. It means there is "a very high degree of doubt concerning the reading selected for the text." The same source also gives a 'D' rating to the phrase "after worshiping Him" in verse 52. - p. 319, United Bible Societies, 1975.
............................
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
Luke 24:
Verse 51
(51) The words and was carried up into heaven are wanting in some of the best MSS., and are omitted accordingly by some recent editors.
Verse 52
(52) They worshipped him."These words also are absent from most of the best MSS. If they stand as part of the text, we must remember that they describe the attitude of prostrate adoration.
..........................
Both phrases are enclosed in double brackets in the W and H text.
Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament:
Luke 24:
Verse 51
"He parted from them (- " dieste ap' auton). Second aorist active (intransitive) indicative of - " diistemi He stood apart ( " dia) and he was gone. Some manuscripts do not have the words 'and was carried into heaven'.
Verse 52
"Worshipped him (- " proskunesantes auton). Here again we have one of Westcott and Horts Western non-interpolations that may be genuine or not."
Compare ASV footnotes for those same phrases in Luke 24.
............................
The United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament gives the phrase rendered "and was carried up into heaven" in verse 51 a 'D' rating. This is their very lowest rating of reliability. It means there is "a very high degree of doubt concerning the reading selected for the text." The same source also gives a 'D' rating to the phrase "after worshiping Him" in verse 52. - p. 319, United Bible Societies, 1975.
............................
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
Luke 24:
Verse 51
(51) The words and was carried up into heaven are wanting in some of the best MSS., and are omitted accordingly by some recent editors.
Verse 52
(52) They worshipped him."These words also are absent from most of the best MSS. If they stand as part of the text, we must remember that they describe the attitude of prostrate adoration.
..........................
Both phrases are enclosed in double brackets in the W and H text.
Post #5
I found only one among many that does not contain it.
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%2024:52
Furthermore, this tread is with the Jehovah's Witnesses in mind and they affirmed that the Lord Jesus was indeed worshiped.
https://www.biblegateway.com/verse/en/Luke%2024:52
Furthermore, this tread is with the Jehovah's Witnesses in mind and they affirmed that the Lord Jesus was indeed worshiped.
Post #6
In their Fourth revised edition (c. 1983) 'The United Bible Societies' Greek New Testament' does not give the phrase "after worshiping Him" a "D" rating in verse 52 but rather a "B" rating (page 311).
In addition to Adam Clarke (cited above) it is not at all surprising that we read the following:
1. William Arndt (one of the contributors to the classic BDAG Lexicon): as Jesus withdrew from the disciples, visibly rising upward, they fell down on their knees, overcome by the conviction of His being the true God and the Savior (Luke, page 501-502).
2. Thomas Schreiner: Luke concludes on a remarkable note. The disciples of Jesus were monotheists well schooled in OT devotion, and yet they worship Jesus (Luke 24:52). Such worship of Jesus, however, does not contradict their devotion to monotheism and the one God of Israel and of the world, for the next verse informs us that they blessed and praised God (Luke 24:53) (New Testament Theology: Magnifying God in Christ, page 189-190).
In addition to Adam Clarke (cited above) it is not at all surprising that we read the following:
1. William Arndt (one of the contributors to the classic BDAG Lexicon): as Jesus withdrew from the disciples, visibly rising upward, they fell down on their knees, overcome by the conviction of His being the true God and the Savior (Luke, page 501-502).
2. Thomas Schreiner: Luke concludes on a remarkable note. The disciples of Jesus were monotheists well schooled in OT devotion, and yet they worship Jesus (Luke 24:52). Such worship of Jesus, however, does not contradict their devotion to monotheism and the one God of Israel and of the world, for the next verse informs us that they blessed and praised God (Luke 24:53) (New Testament Theology: Magnifying God in Christ, page 189-190).
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JehovahsWitness
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Post #7
[Replying to post 6 by Faber]
No they did not. YOU seem to misunderstand what JWs meant when they used the word "worship" in their earlier publications. Whenever you read the word "worship" (related to Jesus) in Jehovah's Witnesses dogma, the word always means honored/paid hommage.
QUESTIONS: Did Jehovah's Witnesses worship Jesus prior to 1954?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 119#864119
For futher details about the Greek word proskyne please scroll up to consult the series of posts by tigger2 (above) . Find link HERE
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 138#864138
Did Jesus receive worship from his followers?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 405#842405
No they did not. YOU seem to misunderstand what JWs meant when they used the word "worship" in their earlier publications. Whenever you read the word "worship" (related to Jesus) in Jehovah's Witnesses dogma, the word always means honored/paid hommage.
QUESTIONS: Did Jehovah's Witnesses worship Jesus prior to 1954?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 119#864119
"... we are told that while in the name of Jesus every knee should bend of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the ground, and every tongue should openly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, yet all such is not to have Jesus take the place of God" - Watchtower September 1, 1952 p. 519
For futher details about the Greek word proskyne please scroll up to consult the series of posts by tigger2 (above) . Find link HERE
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 138#864138
Did Jesus receive worship from his followers?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 405#842405
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed May 10, 2017 2:31 am, edited 4 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
Post #8
And they continue to do so.JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 6 by Faber]
They simply failed to translate proskyne appropriately.
Proskyne was rendered unto a physically absent Savior. Perhaps you missed this point but I already referred to this fact earlier. None of the other instances you nor anyone else can offer takes this important aspect into account.
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JehovahsWitness
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Post #9
[Replying to post 8 by Faber]
Yes but Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe that. I was under the impression we were discussing JEHOVAH WITNESS doctrine (see OP). You will never find any statement in any JW publication teaching that states Proskyne only due to Jesus while he is physically absent.
If you have any more questions about Jehovah's Witness beliefs please do not hesistate to post them; if you want to post about YOUR beliefs you might like to consider starting another thread, hopefully someone, somewhere on the cyberplanet with the slightest interest in your beliefs will respond.
Have a most excellent day,
JW
Yes but Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe that. I was under the impression we were discussing JEHOVAH WITNESS doctrine (see OP). You will never find any statement in any JW publication teaching that states Proskyne only due to Jesus while he is physically absent.
If you have any more questions about Jehovah's Witness beliefs please do not hesistate to post them; if you want to post about YOUR beliefs you might like to consider starting another thread, hopefully someone, somewhere on the cyberplanet with the slightest interest in your beliefs will respond.
Have a most excellent day,
JW
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Wed May 10, 2017 2:29 am, edited 2 times in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
Post #10
It's due unto the Lord Jesus while He was in their physical presence "and" when He wasn't. The fact that He is the proper recipient of it when He is not physically there proves that it is supreme worship due only unto God.
It's isn't difficult to understand. I don't understand your confusion about this at all.
In addition to what I have previously cited here's something else that might help you.
Joseph Benson: And they worshipped him " Not only prostrated themselves before him, as the word , here used, often means; but, being fully satisfied of his divine power and glory, they worshipped him in the strictest sense of the word, or paid him divine honours, though now become invisible to them; which it is certain they continued to do during the whole course of their ministry; confiding in him in all their dangers and trials; loving him and living to him; and making him, together with the Father, the great object of their prayers, praises, and obedience.
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/rbc/luke-24.html
It's isn't difficult to understand. I don't understand your confusion about this at all.
In addition to what I have previously cited here's something else that might help you.
Joseph Benson: And they worshipped him " Not only prostrated themselves before him, as the word , here used, often means; but, being fully satisfied of his divine power and glory, they worshipped him in the strictest sense of the word, or paid him divine honours, though now become invisible to them; which it is certain they continued to do during the whole course of their ministry; confiding in him in all their dangers and trials; loving him and living to him; and making him, together with the Father, the great object of their prayers, praises, and obedience.
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/rbc/luke-24.html
