Jesus prophecized that the second coming would occur while some of his generation were still alive, but it didn't.
There is some claim that really occurred in 1914. But it didn't. So, what's the claim now?
www.britannica.com/topic/Jehovahs-Witnesses
The Adventist movement emerged in the 1830s around the predictions of William Miller, who proclaimed that Jesus Christ would return in 1843 or 1844.
When Christ did not return as Miller prophecied, Adventists divided into a number of factions.
During the 1870s, Charles Taze Russell established himself as an independent and controversial Adventist teacher.
He rejected belief in hell as a place of eternal torment and adopted a non-Trinitarian theology that denied the divinity of Jesus. He also interpreted the Second Coming in accordance with the literal translation of the original Greek term, parousia (“presence�), suggesting that Christ would come as an invisible presence and that the Parousia, or “Millennial Dawn,� already had occurred, in 1874.
The coming of Christ’s invisible presence signaled the end of the current order of society and would be followed by his visible presence and the establishment of the millennial kingdom on earth in 1914.
Although the kingdom did not come, Russell’s teachings motivated a number of volunteers to circulate his many books and pamphlets and a periodical, The Watchtower, and to recalculate the time of the Parousia.
So when will Christ's visible presence and the establishment of the millennial kingdom on earth occur?
Will the Parousia occur during our lifetime?
Moderator: Moderators
-
- Savant
- Posts: 12235
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
- Location: New England
- Has thanked: 11 times
- Been thanked: 16 times
Post #11
JW, you yourself said that your organiztion admits it's errors, why double down on Russell's failed prediction for 1914?
The claim of the ongoing (since 1914) invisible reign of Christ is convincing to no one outside of the WTS organization.
That needessly diminishes the credibility of the WTC.
I guess it is an essential part of your "end times" theology, which seems so important to your group?
I'm trying to understand.
The claim of the ongoing (since 1914) invisible reign of Christ is convincing to no one outside of the WTS organization.
That needessly diminishes the credibility of the WTC.
I guess it is an essential part of your "end times" theology, which seems so important to your group?
I'm trying to understand.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
Re: Will the Parousia occur during our lifetime?
Post #12RESPONSE: I use the plain meaning of words.JehovahsWitness wrote:That is not a Jehovah's Witness interpretation. We interpret the bible passages differently.polonius.advice wrote: Jesus claimed that no one could know the "day and hour" of his return, according to the gospel writers it would be during the lifetime of Jesus' generation.
JW
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21073
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 790 times
- Been thanked: 1114 times
- Contact:
Post #13
I do believe Russell was (astonishingly) spot on about the date (and that a full 35 years ahead of of time) and that that date would mark the end of the "gentile times" [1] and the start of the parousia (presense) [2]. Do you feel you know enough about these two subjects to debate me on that?Elijah John wrote: JW, you yourself said that your organiztion admits it's errors, why double down on Russell's failed prediction for 1914?
As I said, I think Russell was wrong about other events connect to that date, but I believe the biblical chronology was rock solid. Do you mind that I believe this or are you telling me what I should or should not believe?
In any case I have already posted on this point earlier in the thread HERE
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 789#864789
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
Re: Will the Parousia occur during our lifetime?
Post #14RESPONSE:JehovahsWitness wrote:Do you know the difference between the "parousia" and Christ's return (erkomai)? If you do you will know that there is no contradiction in what I said.polonius.advice wrote:The two parts of your argument are contradictory.
Sure I do.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Parousia
Merriam-Webster Definition of PAROUSIA: SECOND COMING
Strong's Concordance: erchomai: to come, go
Definition: I come, go.
As in Matthew 16:28
Amen I say to you, there are some of them that stand here, that shall not taste death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21073
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 790 times
- Been thanked: 1114 times
- Contact:
Re: Will the Parousia occur during our lifetime?
Post #15That is not the Jehovah's Witness usage. We have our own interpretation of biblical terms. Are you are suggesting something was contradictory in my use of the terms within my posts or are you simply saying that, as one of Jehovah's Witnesses, my understanding contradicts with that which is common and therefore what finds itself into most dictionaries (to which I concede).polonius.advice wrote: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Parousia
Merriam-Webster Definition of PAROUSIA: SECOND COMING.
My understanding from reading of the OP is that you were criticising Russell's and Jehovah's Witnessess teachings. To do so, it seems reasonable to assume you know what those teachings are. In any case, within that context, ie according to our understanding of the biblical idea of the parousia and ekcomai, there was nothing internally contradictory in what I wrote. Do you feel you know enough about Jehovah's Witnesss teachings on these topics to say otherwise?
My regards to Merriam and Webster.
JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
Re: Will the Parousia occur during our lifetime?
Post #16JehovahsWitness wrote:That is not the Jehovah's Witness usage. We have our own interpretation of biblical terms.polonius.advice wrote: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Parousia
Merriam-Webster Definition of PAROUSIA: SECOND COMING.
RESPONSE: Indeed so! So such an interpretation has been shown to change frequently as the older one becomes untenable. Perhaps JW's should stick to the plain meaning of words and be consistent.
- JehovahsWitness
- Savant
- Posts: 21073
- Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
- Has thanked: 790 times
- Been thanked: 1114 times
- Contact:
Re: Will the Parousia occur during our lifetime?
Post #17Yes, this is as I have said several times , is absolutely not problem for us.polonius.advice wrote: RESPONSE: Indeed so! So such an interpretation has been shown to change frequently as the older one becomes untenable.
Perhaps you or anyone else that doesn't like the Jehovah's Witness position on theology, should simply not become one.polonius.advice wrote: Perhaps JW's should stick to the plain meaning of words and be consistent.
JW
Jehovah's Witnessses are happy they change their beliefs!
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 304#865304
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
Again, Jesus claim as to his parousia
Post #18Douay-Rheims Bible
Matthew 10:23 "And when they shall persecute you in this city, flee into another. Amen I say to you, you shall not finish all the cities of Israel, till the Son of man come."
Here is yet another prophecy of his parousia by Jesus during his generation.
Matthew 10:23 "And when they shall persecute you in this city, flee into another. Amen I say to you, you shall not finish all the cities of Israel, till the Son of man come."
Here is yet another prophecy of his parousia by Jesus during his generation.
-
- Savant
- Posts: 12235
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
- Location: New England
- Has thanked: 11 times
- Been thanked: 16 times
Re: Will the Parousia occur during our lifetime?
Post #19That's convenient. So those who do not, or cannot detect that the Parousia is already occurring are not "people of faith"?JehovahsWitness wrote:Yes it did. The Parousia has been occuring invisibly since 1914. Only men and women of faith can discern this.polonius.advice wrote:
There is some claim that really occurred in 1914. But it didn't.
And how do you define Parousia, anyway? Is your definition shared by the theologians of "Chistiandom"? Or are you dismissive of their definition because they are outside of the Watchtower fellowship.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-
- Savant
- Posts: 12235
- Joined: Mon Oct 28, 2013 8:23 pm
- Location: New England
- Has thanked: 11 times
- Been thanked: 16 times
Re: Mark wrote first, did he get it wrong?
Post #20And Paul too. And the author of Hebrews: "in these last days", and other NT writers as well. They were wrong. The NT was wrong, the Bible was wrong. At the very least we can conclude that the either Jesus and his first century disciples were not infallible, and/or that the Bible is not infallible.polonius wrote: Mark 9:1
And he said to them, "I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God come with power."
Paul, 1 Thes 4 15-17 " For this we declare to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will by no means precede those who have died.[j] 16 For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel’s call and with the sound of God’s trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord forever."
So evidently Jesus expected to return by the end of the first century.
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.