John 17:3 doesn't teach Jesus is not the "true God"

Faber · Post by **Faber** » Fri May 19, 2017 1:29 am

John 17:3
This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (NASB)

Why is it that some cite John 17:3 in thinking the Lord Jesus is not the true God when every other instance when the "true God" is used in Scripture it refers to the true God in contradistinction to false gods (2 Chronicles 15:3; Jeremiah 10:10-11; 1 Thessalonians 1:9 and 1 John 5:20-21)?

For those who deny the Lord Jesus is God, is Jesus a false god?

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Sun May 21, 2017 7:26 am

Faber wrote: John 17:3
This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. (NASB)

Why is it that some cite John 17:3 in thinking the Lord Jesus is not the true God when every other instance when the "true God" is used in Scripture it refers to the true God in contradistinction to false gods (2 Chronicles 15:3; Jeremiah 10:10-11; 1 Thessalonians 1:9 and 1 John 5:20-21)?

For those who deny the Lord Jesus is God, is Jesus a false god?

ANYONE that takes the place of the Father, Jehovah, as God are "false" gods. It is only Jehovah who is God---the "only true God." How can you NOT see that? It's quite clear from Jesus' words at John 17:3 and dozens of other verses. To call Jehovah "my God" shows you incontrovertibly that Jesus HAS a God, and to all possible reason, if he was God he wouldn't HAVE a God. (John 20:17; Rev.3:12)

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Sun May 21, 2017 7:31 am

Faber wrote: "God does not send Himself."

He didn't. God the Father sent God the Son.

You fail to notice that Jesus said that THE FATHER was the ONLY true God. Therefore, "God" = the Father. God can be no one else. The Father is God in completion. If not, Jesus would have had to say, "WE are the only true God."

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Sun May 21, 2017 7:36 am

Faber wrote: The "true God" is always used this way elsewhere in Scripture. There is not one exception.

The "true God" is in contrast to false gods (John 17:3).
1. Frederick Danker: of God in contrast to other deities, who are not real J 17:3 (A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and Other Early Christian Literature, al"thinos, page 43).
2. K. H. Bartels: in Jn. 17:3, monos is linked with al"thinos, true, in contrast to the deceptive appearance (pseudos) of all alleged gods and revealers (NIDNTT 2:724, One).
3. R. C. Trench: But He is - (1 Thess. 1:9; John 17:3; Isai. 65:16; == verus), very God, as distinguished from idols and all other false gods, the dreams of the diseased fancy of man, with no substantial existence in the world of realities (viii. -, -.)
http://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/tre ... ectionID=8
4. W. E. Vine: John 7:28; 17:3; 1 Thess. 1:9; Rev. 6:10 ; these declare that God fulfils the meaning of His Name, He is "very God," in distinction from all other gods, false gods (Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words, True, page 1170).
5. J. A. Fitzmeyer: In John 17:3 the Gospel writer interprets "eternal life" by having Jesus say, - , "that they may know you, the only true God." Here Yahweh is implicitly contrasted with other deities (EDNT 2:441, monos).

Nothing you have posted there shows Jesus to be God. The Father is plainly God and no other god can compare to Him. Your W.E. Vine and J.A. Fitzmeyer even emphasize this point. You are contradicting your own premise.

Faber · Post by **Faber** » Sun May 21, 2017 10:12 am

I never asserted that John 17:3 proves the Lord Jesus is God.
Some people do cite it in thinking it teaches the Lord Jesus is not God but the evidence doesn't support their case.

Faber · Post by **Faber** » Sun May 21, 2017 10:23 am

onewithhim wrote:
Faber wrote: "God does not send Himself."

He didn't. God the Father sent God the Son.
You fail to notice that Jesus said that THE FATHER was the ONLY true God. Therefore, "God" = the Father. God can be no one else. The Father is God in completion. If not, Jesus would have had to say, "WE are the only true God."

God is the only true God in contradistinction to false gods and the Lord Jesus is not a false god.
In fact, the same Greek word for "only" (monos) appears in Jude 1:4 in relation to the Lord Jesus.
Jude 1:4
For certain persons have crept in unnoticed, those who were long beforehand marked out for this condemnation, ungodly persons who turn the grace of our God into licentiousness and deny our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. (NASB)
The Greek word for "Master" is despot"s.

Who is your ONLY despot"s in heaven?
The Father (Acts 4:24) or the Lord Jesus (Jude 1:4)?

To those who believe the Lord Jesus is God this doesn't present any problem for the Father and Son are ontologically one but for those who deny the Lord Jesus is God they have more than one being who is the "only" despot"s in heaven.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Sun May 21, 2017 6:38 pm

Faber wrote: I never asserted that John 17:3 proves the Lord Jesus is God.
Some people do cite it in thinking it teaches the Lord Jesus is not God but the evidence doesn't support their case.

It certainly does support the fact that Jesus is not God; it even supports the fact that he is subservient to God. In verse 5 he prays that God will GIVE him the amount of glory he had previously in heaven, before he came to the earth. God Almighty does not need anyone to GIVE him anything.

What are some points about the Apostle John's whole Christological outlook, evidenced throughout his Gospel account? Let's just begin with the words of Thomas, addressed to Jesus in John 20:28--"My Lord and my God." People jump to the conclusion that he meant that Jesus is God, because so many of us have been conditioned to believe that. We think that Thomas must have meant what people use that word to mean in the 21st century. But if Jesus is "God," in the absolute sensse, why only a few verses earlier does Jesus address his Father as "my God," calling Him at the same time "your God," the God of the disciples?

Anthony Buzzard & Charles F. Hunting say in their book The Doctrine of the Trinity, "When Jesus addressed the Father as 'my God,' (John 20:17) he acknowledged that he was inferior to God, the Father. Jesus is not, therefore, God in the absolute sense. For Thomas, also, Jesus is 'God' in a QUALIFIED SENSE, as Messiah, the supreme legal agent of the one God. The one whom Thomas calls God is himself inferior to the one God addressed by Jesus as his God. Thus understood, Jesus remains within the category of Messiah, Son of God, a category which John expressly imposes on his entire book (John 20:31). Fundamental to John's outlook are two primary facts: (1)Jesus is to be believed in as 'Messiah, Son of God,' while (2) the Father's unique status is preserved as 'the only true God' (John 17:3) and 'the one who alone if God' (John 5:44)."

(P.122)

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Sun May 21, 2017 6:44 pm

[Replying to post 15 by Faber]

I reject your assertions, and I have already explained many times why I do.

Faber · Post by **Faber** » Sun May 21, 2017 8:45 pm

Next time please answer the question I asked. Here it is again:

Who is your ONLY despot"s in heaven?
The Father (Acts 4:24) or the Lord Jesus (Jude 1:4)?

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Mon May 22, 2017 1:32 pm

Faber wrote: Next time please answer the question I asked. Here it is again:

Who is your ONLY despot"s in heaven?
The Father (Acts 4:24) or the Lord Jesus (Jude 1:4)?

Tell me again what "despotes" means, please.

Faber · Post by **Faber** » Mon May 22, 2017 4:48 pm

http://biblehub.com/greek/1203.htm

Debating Christianity and Religion

John 17:3 doesn't teach Jesus is not the "true God"

John 17:3 doesn't teach Jesus is not the "true God"

Re: John 17:3 doesn't teach Jesus is not the "true God&

Re: John 17:3 doesn't teach Jesus is not the "true God&

Re: John 17:3 doesn't teach Jesus is not the "true God&

Re: John 17:3 doesn't teach Jesus is not the "true God&