Do you have the hope of going to heaven

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Fri Mar 03, 2017 11:02 pm

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses I do not have a hope of going to heaven (when I speak of "heaven" I mean the spiritual abode/realm where God lives).

- Do you personally entertain the hope of going to heaven to spend eternity with God when you die? (if this question is too personal I respect if you do not want to share this information)

- If so, do you believe such a literal spiritual realm exists?

- Do you believe that Jesus is presently in heaven where God exists?

* My question is for people that do believe that a God exists, since I presume that those that do not believe in God do believe he exists anywhere and therefore there is no "heaven" where God is.

RightReason · Post by **RightReason** » Thu May 25, 2017 8:26 am

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Okay, so (correct me if I'm wrong) you take the word "heaven" in this prayer to be literally where God lives (the spirit realm).

I notice you didn't answer all my questions..... what do you understand the word "earth" to refer to?

This response I do not understand. I thought my answer was very clear on what I think the first line of the Our Father refers to. I answered your questions in full. Again . . .

I believe right now God, Jesus, Mary, and all the angels and Saints abide in heaven or the spiritual realm. We human beings live on earth. We live in what is referred to as the natural world. They are part of the supernatural.

In The Our Father we are praying to God, our Father, who we know is part of the supernatural world in heaven and we are asking and declaring that His will be done for us here on Earth " just like all those in heaven do the will of Our Father.

What arent you clear about?

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Thu May 25, 2017 12:17 pm

RightReason wrote:...the supernatural world in heaven

So HEAVEN = The supernatural world.

Good I get that (and I agree) but I'm still not clear what you exactly what you think the word "earth" as mentioned in the prayer refers to? Our literal planet earth? Another planet? someone's thoughts? imagination or feelings? People? What?

What do you think is being referred to when Jesus said the word "EARTH"? in the Lord's prayer

JW

RightReason · Post by **RightReason** » Thu May 25, 2017 2:40 pm

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

o HEAVEN = The supernatural world.

Good I get that (and I agree) but I'm still not clear what you exactly what you think the word "earth" as mentioned in the prayer refers to? Our literal planet earth? Another planet? someone's thoughts? imagination or feelings? People? What?

Yes, of course this literal planet we are living on. Im not even sure what you mean by someones thoughts? Or feelings? What does that even mean?

Jesus gave us the Lords Prayer and told us that is how we are to pray. So, of course it was directed to us human beings who Jesus Christ was conversing with who would have known earth referred to this place we currently inhabit.

Why? What else could it mean? IMO, the basic meaning of the prayer is so obvious, even my 6 year old understands.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Thu May 25, 2017 4:25 pm

RightReason wrote:Yes, of course this literal planet we are living on.

Okay so Jesus connected a prayed for kingdom with this literal planet earth. What about the promise that "The meek shall inherit the earth"? What do you think he was referring to when he said the word "earth" there?

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Thu May 25, 2017 5:00 pm

duplication

RightReason · Post by **RightReason** » Thu May 25, 2017 8:16 pm

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

Okay so Jesus connected a prayed for kingdom with this literal planet earth. What about the promise that "The meek shall inherit the earth"? What do you think he was referring to when he said the word "earth" there?

Here, the meek shall inherit the earth is a truism " a general statement which can be applied to a broad range of situations. Its not difficult to see this phrase in the Bible is similar to a proverb " advice/wisdom to follow. Another example of a truism is a man reaps what he sows which obviously has a wide variety of applications. It means God will bless and multiply the work of all those who are meek and humble of heart, both in this life and in the life to come. So of course for Christians, the meek shall inherit the earth means if we are humble of heart, we will obtain our inheritance " heaven.

I know JWs like their word games, but Im afraid, the meek shall inherit the earth or on earth as it is in heaven are two very different verses neither of them supporting the idea of an eternal planet earth.

I know you probably wont, but if youre ever bored or curious you should watch these videos of JW converts to Catholicism. If anything, watch them and tell me what they get wrong.

Hope you have a nice weekend.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Fri May 26, 2017 1:34 am

RightReason wrote:the meek shall inherit the earth means [...] we will obtain our inheritance " heaven.

So for you when Jesus said the word "earth" he meant the word "heaven"? Does that seem a reasonable interpretation to you? or did I misunderstand what you are saying?

Since, by your own admission Jesus had already relate the coming kingdom to this literal planet earth, what scriptural basis do you have to justify your conclusion that here he uses of the word "EARTH" to refer to "heaven"? Can you tell me why he would say "earth" instead of "heaven" ie "The meek shall inherit heaven" if that is what he wanted to communicate?

JW

RightReason · Post by **RightReason** » Fri May 26, 2017 9:06 am

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

So for you when Jesus said the word "earth" he meant the word "heaven"? Does that seem a reasonable interpretation to you?

Yes, because like I said the verse is a truism. If I wanted to get a point across to my 6 year old, I could say, If you are good, you shall receive a treat. He would quite easily be able to understand what I mean is if he behaves the way I like, he will be rewarded by me. He will understand the basic truism that it is good to be good. Treat is being used as a universal term that a 6 year old can relate to. Just like land/earth/property implies wealth/ownership/roots/home.

Since, by your own admission Jesus had already relate the coming kingdom to this literal planet earth, what scriptural basis do you have to justify your conclusion that here he uses of the word "EARTH" to refer to "heaven"?

A lot. The basic meanings of the texts, determining what something means via context, logic, reason, accepting what Christs 2000 year old Church tells us, understanding that the same words have different meanings, understanding that if I say, This meeting is lasting forever doesnt literally mean this meeting is eternal.

I have showed why you have not provided Scriptural evidence for any of the verses you posted to mean what you think they mean AND I posted additional verses that say the opposite of what JW teaching believes. So I am unconvinced that there is sufficient support of an eternal planet earth.

I also pointed out the elephant in the room. I pointed out what should be a huge red flag. On whose authority did the NWT come to be? Please ask yourself that. Charles Russell truly believed the world was going to end on specific dates that have now passed. He believed it and he taught it and he was wrong. What makes you think his reading of Sacred Scripture is right?

Surely, you can see how two sincere individuals seeking truth could sit down, read the same Bible and come to different conclusions. It would be quite easy to emphasize certain words more than others, to miss the correct understanding or meaning of the word as the author intended, to make connections where there arent any, to miss connections where there should be, etc.

Surely, God knows our human limitations. This is precisely why Christ left us His Church that He promised to remain with. Does it really make sense to you that He started a Church, abandoned it, left His people without a visible, earthly Church, and started a new Church centuries and centuries later through a guy named Charles Russell? A man who took Sacred Scripture from Christs Church and ignored what Christs Church said the Sacred Scripture meant and created a new translation? A translation, by the way, which admittedly can change and has changed throughout the years. JWs believe whatever latest NWT exists voids all previous NWT. Are you telling me youre ok with that?

Why would you believe any of it? They might change this whole eternal planet earth belief tomorrow. Because that is exactly what theyve done in the past. When JW was first started, there were maybe 20,000 members so this 140,000 getting to heaven sounded pretty good to everyone. But as their membership grew, they were forced to change their theology. It wasnt until the 1960s when the JWs started teaching about a literal planet earth paradise. Ya know to accommodate all those beyond the 140,000. This all sounds more like a Da Vinci code novel than Gods Church. You do not have to buy into this.

Again, I do not mean to be short or rude or condescending. I have no doubt you truly believe what you believe, but it simply doesnt make sense. I know JW teaches you to see the Catholic Church as the whore of Babylon, but that too is a gross mistranslation of Scripture. Take another look at the Catholic Church. If one is being honest, it is easy to see it is the Catholic Church that has remained constant in her theology and teachings on matters of faith and morals. Almost every other religion has caved to the fashions of the day. It is the Catholic Church who continues to stand up against the justification of pre-marital sex, same-sex relationships, abortion, contraception, euthanasia, divorce, hatred, bigotry, etc. The Church remains a beacon to the world.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Fri May 26, 2017 10:08 am

RightReason wrote: [Replying to JehovahsWitness]

So for you when Jesus said the word "earth" he meant the word "heaven"? Does that seem a reasonable interpretation to you?

Yes {snip}

Since, by your own admission Jesus had already relate the coming kingdom to this literal planet earth, what scriptural basis do you have to justify your conclusion that here he uses of the word "EARTH" to refer to "heaven"?
A lot. {snip}

I see NOT ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE in your "scriptural justification". Would you like to try again this time using the bible?

JW

RightReason · Post by **RightReason** » Fri May 26, 2017 11:13 am

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

I see NOT ONE SINGLE SCRIPTURE in your "scriptural justification". Would you like to try again this time using the bible?

Ha,ha,ha . . . And if your right hand causes you to stumble, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell. "Matt 5:30

Similar remarks are made here as well Mr 9:43-47, Col 3:5, Mt 18:8.

Look at all that Scripture saying the same thing! Please use Scripture to contradict this Scripture. Explain why the above verses do not mean we should all be literally cutting off our hands and feet and plucking out our eyes and putting to death or killing that which causes us to sin.