Spotting God's Inspiration in the Bible

[jgh7]

Is it possible to spot God's inspiration in the bible?

If one was to read in a religious book, "Treat others as you would like to be treated," it could be argued that this sentence could have easily come solely from the minds of man, even if some believe it to be divinely inspired.

With that in mind, are there any verses/paragraphs/passages in the bible that are so profound or even strange that they must have been divinely inspired? Or is everything in the bible dismissable as being capable to have been written from man's mind alone.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 5 by Justin108]

Can you provide an example of a prophecy that is both precise, not open to interpretation, and predicts something that would not otherwise have been predicable through non-divine means?

I'm not expecting be wowed if JW chooses to respond to this request. He and I have dealt with precisely this question before, and needless to say, I tore what he posted and chose to call 'prophecies' to shreds.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 1 by jgh7]

I believe evidence of the divine inspration of the bible falls into three main catagories

#1 It's scientific accuracy and that far beyond the available knowledge of the writers of the time in which they lived
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/maga ... -accuracy/

#2 The infallibility of its principles proving a wisdom beyond that of the imperfect writers who penned it who were naturally limited by time, culture and circumstance.

#3 It's proven track record of predicting historical events before they occur [prophecy], something beyond the ability of humans.

I would add to that the very existence of the bible, given the concerted efforts to wipe it out of existence lends reasonable people to conclude the book itself has benefited from divine protection.



I will draw your attention to my earlier post on this topic for supporting evidence
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 255#840255

What does it mean that the bible is "inspired of God"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 965#867965

How Can We Be Sure the Bible Is True
[youtube][/youtube]

Isa.40[22] It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

[...] All it proves is that the "scientific" thought process of believers is flat and two dimensional. Because the Earth is not a circle in exactly the same way that a box is not a square.

I have already explained this point. I will post a link in case you missed my answer.

Does the bible say the earth is flat ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 467#800467



Regards,

JW

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 8 by May_Queen44]

On 15 March 2004, there were exactly 911 days between the Twin Towers attack of September 11, 2001 and the bomb attacks on the trains in Madrid Spain on March 11, 2004.

912 days, actually. I just checked.

Manhattan Island was discovered on September 11, 1609 by Henry Hudson -11 letters.

Huh. Could've sworn a different fellow sighted Manhattan

an Italian, Giovanni da Verrazzano, in 1524.
Hudson mapped Manhattan. He didn't discover it.

Satan, himself also showed me how these workings are like a domino effect.

Just like with all others on this site who have claimed communication with supernatural entities...prove it.

Now, in the USA here, our civilian dates are month/day, but worldwide and with the military, it is day/month. So with most countries outside the US, it would be 11/9, not 9/11.

So yeah, just flip the numbers why don't you, because then it's convenient to whatever narrative it is you're doing.

[McCulloch]

It's proven track record of predicting historical events before they occur [prophecy], something beyond the ability of humans.

There are only two flaws in this argument that I can think of:

1. It is a non sequitur. Can you truly and validly conclude that the Epistle of James is inspired because Daniel got some prophesy right?
2. It is untrue.
   • Ezekiel got it wrong about Egypt and about Tyre
   • While one of the prophets predicted messiah's birth from Bethlehem, the alleged fulfillment is entirely unconvincing. Two authors, neither of them witnesses, pen two different, uncorroborated and contradictory tales of the nativity decades after the fact.

[JehovahsWitness]

[*]It is untrue.

• Ezekiel got it wrong about Egypt and about Tyre

I have already explained Ezekiel's prophecy. Here is the link.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 428#824428

[JehovahsWitness]

Can you truly and validly conclude that the Epistle of James is inspired because Daniel got some prophesy right?

What does this mean? Are you admitting that "Daniel got some propheycy right"? If not, why did you phrase your question as if you are objecting to the significants of his accuracy rather than pointing out that Daniel got it wrong?

[alexxcJRO]

[Replying to post 15 by JehovahsWitness]

I have already explained Ezekiel's prophecy. Here is the link.
The 40-year desolation of Egypt may well occurred some time after Babylonian conquest of Jerusalem in 607 B.C.E.

Lets look at the verses:

10 So I am against you and against your Nile, and I will make the land of Egypt devastated and dry, a desolate wasteland,+ from Migdol+ to Sy-ene+ to the boundary of E-thi-opi-a. 11 Neither man nor livestock will pass through it on foot,+ and it will not be inhabited for 40 years. ( Ez 28:10-11)

The bible clearly says no man or livestock will pass on foot through Egypt, no inhabitants.

Firstly,

What about traders taking livestock, gold, slaves, salt, and cloth to sell? The only way to go from North Africa to Asia if you dont have a ship is trough Egypt-Israel.

Trans-Saharan trade requires travel across the Sahara (north and south) to reach sub-Saharan Africa from the North African coast, Europe, to the Levant. While existing from prehistoric times, the peak of trade extended from the 8th century until the early 17th century.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Saharan_trade

Forget about traders.
No man or livestock will pass on foot, no inhabitants for 40 years just like that?!!!
Seriously? Clearly this prophesy is dead wrong.

Q: Why would no man, no livestock walk in Egypt for 40 years?

Secondly,
You say the desolation occurred after 607 BC but this time coincide with the dynasty of Necho II. He tried to build a canal from Tell el-Maskhuta to Suez in this time.


Remnants of an ancient west-east canal, running through the ancient Egyptian cities of Bubastis, Pi-Ramesses, and Pithom were discovered by Napoleon Bonaparte and his cadre of engineers and cartographers in 1799.[41][42][43][44][45] Other evidence seems to indicate the existence of an ancient canal around the 13th century BC, during the time of Ramesses II.[46][47][48][49][50] Later construction efforts continued during the reigns of Necho II, Darius I of Persia and Ptolemy II Philadelphus.

"Psammetichus left a son called Necos, who succeeded him upon the throne. This prince was the first to attempt the construction of the canal to the Red Sea"a work completed afterwards by Darius the Persian"the length of which is four days journey, and the width is such as to admit of two triremes being rowed along it abreast. The water is derived from the Nile, which the canal leaves a little above the city of Bubastis, near Patumus, the Arabian town, being continued thence until it joins the Red Sea." [51]
"This [the canal from the Nile to the Red Sea] was begun by Necho II [610 BCE " 595 BCE], and completed by Darius I, who set up stelae c. 490 [BCE], ... and later restored by Ptolemy II Philadelphus, Trajan and Hadrian, and Amr ibn el-'Asi, the Muslim conqueror of Egypt. Its length from Tell el-Maskhuta to Suez was about 85 km (52.82 mi).[52]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_trade






QUESTION: Did the bible wrongly predict the permenent destruction of the city of Tyre?
No, Firstly, note the scripture does not say "you will never be inhabited" it says "you willl never be rebuilt". (The bible does contain some prophecies of perpectual or temporary desolation but this is not one of them). Further, the "you" in the bible's pronouncements is the Phoenician Empire, her dynasty ("you"), (Ez 28:13-18 ) and her capital. Though Tyre would exist as a under Grecian dominance, as a Roman provence and latter a Lebanese city, Alexander's conquest brought a permanent end the Phoenecian city of Tyre guilty in God's eyes, of mistreatment of His people.

Lets look at the bible:

7 For this is what the Sovereign Lord Jehovah says: Here I am bringing King Neb-u-chad-nezzar* of Babylon against Tyre from the north;+ he is a king of kings,+ with horses,+ war chariots,+ cavalrymen, and an army of many soldiers.* 8 He will destroy your settlements in the countryside with the sword, and he will build a siege wall and throw up a siege rampart against you and raise up a great shield against you. 9 He will pound your walls with his battering ram,* and with his axes*he will pull down your towers. 10 His horses will be so many that they will cover you with dust, and the sound of the cavalry, the wheels, and the chariots will cause your walls to shake when he enters your gates, like men storming a city with broken walls.11 The hooves of his horses will trample down all your streets;+ he will kill your people with the sword, and your mighty pillars will crash to the ground. 12 They will loot your resources, plunder your merchandise,+ tear down your walls, and pull down your fine houses; then they will throw your stones and your woodwork and your soil into the water.13 I will put an end to the noise of your songs, and the sound of your harps will be heard no more.+ 14 And I will make you a shining, bare rock, and you will become a drying yard for dragnets.+ You will never be rebuilt, for I myself, Jehovah, have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.

Firstly,
Here God explicitly states that Nebuchadnezzar would completely sack and destroy the city of Tyre and that Tyre's land would never be built upon again. However, this never occurred, the city was still there with it's walls and defenses intact, inhabited when Alexander the Great attacked the city 240 years later.

Secondly,
Tyre is an ancient Phoenician city and the legendary birthplace of Europa and Dido (Elissa). Today it is the fourth largest city in Lebanon[4] and houses one of the nation's major ports. Tourism is a major industry. The city has a number of ancient sites, including its Roman Hippodrome which was added to UNESCO's list of World Heritage Sites in 1979.[5][6]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyre,_Lebanon

The text clearly says And I will make you a shining, bare rock, and you will become a drying yard for dragnets.+ You will never be rebuilt. But the city exists even today, therefore has been rebuilt and it s doing just fine. Therefore the prophesy is dead wrong.

[JehovahsWitness]

Neither man nor livestock will pass through it on foot( Ez [strike]28[/strike] 29:10-11)

The problem is how are you going to prove that the expression "pass through it on foot" to be taken literally in the absolute sense?





JW

RELATED POSTS


Forty Year Egyptian desolation [Ezekiel 29:9-11]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 31#p824431

WHO does the bible predict would destroy TYRE? [Ezekiel 26, 27]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 96#p868896

Did the bible wrongly predict the eventual permenent destruction of the city of Tyre? [Ezekiel 26:14]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 28#p824428

Did the bible predict permanent destruction following the Babylonian conflict?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 96#p868896

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 17 by alexxcJRO]


QUESTION: Did the bible wrongly predict the permenent destruction of the city of Tyre? [Ezekiel 26:14]
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 428#824428

BIBLICAL PROPHECY: TYRE

Did the bible predict permanent destruction following the Babylonian conflict?

It was not Isaiah (or Jeremiah and his contempriates) that predicted the ultimate end for Tyre but a later prophet, Zechariah

About 100 years before its destruction Isaiah prophecied about its fall of the Phenocian city of Tyre. (Jeremiah also prophecied about Tyre's eventual destruction) Isaiah Chapter 23 verse 17 however indicates that this destruction would NOT be permanent stating "And it must occur at the end of seventy years that Jehovah will turn his attention to Tyre, and she must return to her hire" (also see Jer 25:8-11; Isa 23:1-18 ). [/ul]
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1102000039#h=29

Did the bible predict utter destrction at the hand of the Babylonians?

[ul]Though great, the bible does not say that Nebuchanezzars seige would have total success. Ezekiel*, writing in Babylonian exile in about 591, reported that Nebuchadnezzar received no or full rewards, for his seige on Tyre. Tyre originally consisted of two distinct urban centers, Tyre itself, which was on an island just off shore, and an associated settlement on the adjacent mainland. Although the mainland city did eventually capitulates, lacking a fleet the Babylonians fail to take the island (where the bulk of the treasures of Tyres had been transfered). According to the Jewish historian Josephus, the siege lasted 13 years (Against Apion, I, 156 [21]), and it cost the Babylonians a great deal. Ezekiel predicts that Nebuchadnezzar would thereafter turn to the more profitable prize of the wealth of Egypt, stating [...] Here I am giving to Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon the land of Egypt, and he must carry off its wealth and make a big spoil of it and do a great deal of plundering of it; and it must become wages for his military force. -- Ez 29:19. The fulfillment of this prophecy came was fulfilled when Nebuchanzzer moved on Egypt in 588.[/ul]

Ezekiel 26 - Does the bible say Nebuchanezzar would be Tyre's last conquerer? "THEY" or "HE"

[ul][li]In 591 BCE Ezekiel is reporting on the Babylonian siege mentioned Nebuchanezzar by name. However in verse 12 of his prophecy in chapter 26 there is a shift and Ezekiel speaks not of one King ("he") to a number of conquerers ("they"). That chapter 26 is highlighting a number of different invasions, starting with Nebuchanezzar but not limited to him, is clear from the introduction to the passage which says "and I will bring up against you many nations, just as the sea brings up its waves" so Ezekiel highlights the fact that "many nations" would crash against Tyre like a series of "waves", culminating in the Grecian invasion that would forever end Tyres material dominance in the region (Ezekiel 26:4, 5, 12).[/li][/ul]



TYRE'S DESTRUCTION

Does Ezekiel 26:21 and 27: 36 indicate Tyre would never be rebuilt?

[ul]Ezekiel 26:21 reads in the New World Translation (NWT): Sudden terrors are what I shall make you, and you will not be; and you will be sought for, but you will no more be found to time indefinite, is the utterance of the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.

Chapter 27: 36 of the same book reads "As for merchants among the peoples, they will certainly whistle over you. Sudden terrors are what you must become, and you will be no more to time indefinite." [/ul]
Firstly as noted, Ezekiels prophecy applies to the Babylonian (not the Grecian) conquest which would indeed be a temporary one. Further note the expression as found in the New World Translation (NWT) "time indefinte". While most bible read "forever" or "never", the Hebrew word in the original text oh-lam carries the thought of indefinite or uncertain time (strongs #2759: lasting, long (time)).

Lexicographer Gesenius defines it as meaning hidden time, i.e. obscure and long, of which the beginning or end is uncertain or indefinite. (A Hebrew and English Lexicon of the Old Testament, translated by E. Robinson, 1836, p. 746). So while ohlam CAN of course mean forever (ie without end, especially when associated with other terms such as "adh" (everlasting/eternity) or "netsach" (forever/always)) "ohlam" it is not, in itself, a synonyme of unending or forever; it often refers to things that have an end, but the period of such things existence can be said to be to time indefinite because the time of their end is not then specified. (. (Ex 31:16, 17; Ro 10:4; Ga 5:18; Col 2:16, 17; Heb 9:15, Ex 40:15; Heb 7:11-24; 10:1.)

[alexxcJRO]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

The problem is how are you going to prove that the expression "pass through it on foot" to be taken literally in the absolute sense?

Pfff The whole metaphor dodge. Predictable.

Q: How do you know it is a metaphor?
Q: How do you know which parts of the text are metaphors and which parts are not? Can you please explain the mechanism which helps you make that determination?

Why did you avoid the rest of the post?
Please dont do this. It does not really help your case. )

You say the desolation occurred after 607 BC but this time coincide with the dynasty of Necho II. He tried to build a canal from Tell el-Maskhuta to Suez in this time.


Remnants of an ancient west-east canal, running through the ancient Egyptian cities of Bubastis, Pi-Ramesses, and Pithom were discovered by Napoleon Bonaparte and his cadre of engineers and cartographers in 1799.[41][42][43][44][45] Other evidence seems to indicate the existence of an ancient canal around the 13th century BC, during the time of Ramesses II.[46][47][48][49][50] Later construction efforts continued during the reigns of Necho II, Darius I of Persia and Ptolemy II Philadelphus.

"Psammetichus left a son called Necos, who succeeded him upon the throne. This prince was the first to attempt the construction of the canal to the Red Sea"a work completed afterwards by Darius the Persian"the length of which is four days journey, and the width is such as to admit of two triremes being rowed along it abreast. The water is derived from the Nile, which the canal leaves a little above the city of Bubastis, near Patumus, the Arabian town, being continued thence until it joins the Red Sea." [51]
"This [the canal from the Nile to the Red Sea] was begun by Necho II [610 BCE " 595 BCE], and completed by Darius I, who set up stelae c. 490 [BCE], ... and later restored by Ptolemy II Philadelphus, Trajan and Hadrian, and Amr ibn el-'Asi, the Muslim conqueror of Egypt. Its length from Tell el-Maskhuta to Suez was about 85 km (52.82 mi).[52]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Egyptian_trade






Alexander's conquest brought a permanent end the Phoenecian city of Tyre.....

Firstly as noted, Ezekiels prophecy applies to the Babylonian (not the Grecian) conquest which would indeed be a temporary one. Further note the expression as found in the New World Translation (NWT) "time indefinte". While most bible read "forever" or "never", the Hebrew word in the original text oh-lam carries the thought of indefinite or uncertain time (strongs #2759: lasting, long (time)).

Nonsense.

Here from the JehovasWitness.org:
13 I will put an end to the noise of your songs, and the sound of your harps will be heard no more.+ 14 And I will make you a shining, bare rock, and you will become a drying yard for dragnets.+ You will never be rebuilt, for I myself, Jehovah, have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah.
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/bibl ... zekiel/26/
It says never be rebuilt.

Also the bible clearly says that Tyre would be completely sacked, destroyed, turn it into bare rock but Alexander the Great didnt do this either, for 17 years later the defenses and walls of Tyre were functional. They were able to keep Antigonus I Monophthalmus at bay for more then an year.

The city of Tyre has been besieged many times throughout history.
Siege of Tyre (724"720 BC) by the Assyrians under Shalmaneser V and Sargon II
Siege of Tyre (701 BC) by the Assyrians under Sennacherib
Siege of Tyre (671 BC) by the Assyrians under Esarhaddon
Siege of Tyre (663 BC) by the Assyrians under Ashurbanipal
Siege of Tyre (586"573 BC) by the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar II
Siege of Tyre (332 BC) by the Macedonians under Alexander the Great
Siege of Tyre (315"314 BC) by Antigonus I Monophthalmus(In 314 BC Antigonus invaded Phoenicia, under Ptolemy's control, and besieged Tyre for more than a year. )
Siege of Tyre (996"998) by the Fatimids
Siege of Tyre (1111"1112) by the Crusaders under Baldwin I of Jerusalem
Siege of Tyre (1124) by the Venetians
Siege of Tyre (1187) by the Ayyubids under Saladin

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Siege_of_Tyre
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antigonus_I_Monophthalmus

The city of Tyre was never a bare rock after 607 BC. The prophesy is dead wrong.