The Holy Spirit is?

[Checkpoint]

A person, an influence of some kind, an "active force", or?

If a person, which person? Is he someone we can know and talk to and hear from?

If not a person, then how, if at all, are we to relate to this non-person?

Please explain why you have the view you present, and reject other ideas.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 14 by JehovahsWitness]

The Holy spirit is God's force or active power,

That sure makes the Holy Spirit a non-person, something inanimate that God uses.

INANIMATE adjective
not alive; showing no sign of life; lifeless.

Why would you conclude that? Can anything that is part of God, issuing from him be described as "lifeless"? Is there any part of God that is "lifeless"?

Because that is what your description tells us.

No, that is what you erroneously concluded.

Comparing something to inanimate objects doesn't mean that thing IS an inanimate object. I used inanimate objects to explain, to illustrate my point. If someone said their lover as sweet as honey that wouldn't mean they are in a romantic relationship with a condiment. A similie does not mean that the two elements are equivalents in every aspect but in one or more aspects.

Nothing that is of God or part of God can be "without life" and nothing that is of God can exist seperate from him, so the holy spirit that is separate cannot exist. That which does not exist cannot be described as "inanimate" or "animate" alive or dead, connected or disconnect... "inanimte holy spirit" is a oxymoron.

Hope that helps,

JW

Ok, let's not get too tied up in words we have chosen to discuss this, and try and cut to the chase.

Neither of us believe the Spirit is inanimate, lifeless.

Neither of us believe the Spirit is a third person of one God who is a trinity of persons.

Both of us believe the Spirit originates from the God who is one, named Jehovah or YHVH, also known as the Father in heaven.

Is that about right so far, do you think?

[For_The_Kingdom]

So what is to stop those same "literary devices" being applied to the holy spirit?

Because it is dictated by the context by which it is applied. This "impersonal, active force" corresponds to God (in the context) according to Peter, and it speaks in another scripture, giving it a personality.

The fact that it speaks ALONE gives good reasons why it isn't impersonal, but rather, personal...contrary to Watchtower theology.

Especially when making a case for the Deity of the Holy Spirit is scriptually difficult, because there just aren't many scriptures pointing that direction.

Well yeah, I will give you that much.

[For_The_Kingdom]

Good observations that do indicate personality.

If something can speak, it probably has a personality. Just sayin.

However, they provide no evidence that person is "the third person of the Holy Trinity".

Then that third person shouldn't be called "God", then.

Maybe because that concept was yet to be thought of.

Or maybe, yet to be discovered.

[For_The_Kingdom]

This point has been FULLY addressed by tigger2:

Does Revelation 22 that refers to the spirit "speaking" necessarily prove it is a person?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 918#868918

And I addressed that post in post #21.

[For_The_Kingdom]

"A personal active force"?

Please explain your statement here. You seem to be indicating that you believe God's spirit is indeed an active force, a personal one.

My "personal" diary, is a diary that BELONGS to me. My "personal" account, is a bank account that belongs or is attributed to me for my own particular use. Are you using the word "personal" in this sense* ? If not can you explain what you mean by "personal"?

I guess what I mean is, when someone is "filled with the Holy Spirit", they have a living, holy spirit inside of them that is literally God...and God is a person.

So it is a personal (a being that has the attribute of personhood) force inside of them.

Jehovah's Witnesses believe the holy spirit is an active force, that is PERSONAL to God as in, it belongs to God for his personal use; in short we believe it not only a force but a PERSONAL active force. We do not however believe it to be a person (an intelligent individual with its own autonomous will and personality) . And you?

Good break-down on how Jehovah's Witnesses view the Holy Spirit. However, take what you said, and consider the exact opposite, and that is what Trinitarians believe.

We believe that the Holy Spirit is an intelligent, sentient, individual with its own autonomous will and personality. Again, I can admit that the scriptural evidence for this is very slim, but we do have a foundation by which the belief is derived from.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 33 by For_The_Kingdom]

Then that third person shouldn't be called "God", then.

Yes, that "third person" should be called a figment of the imagination of religious man.

[tam]

Peace to you Checkpoint! I know you mentioned that your eyes are needing a break from the internet for whatever reason, but I found this saved in my drafts, and had not yet posted it. So I'm just going to do that now...

[Replying to post 1 by Checkpoint]

The Holy Spirit is?
What or Who?

Both. What or who.

Sometimes the gospels refer to holy spirit (what). Not as a person. Rather as the breath/blood/seed of JAH. (this is the water of life that Christ - the LIFE - gives us; the anointing/baptism of holy spirit)

Sometimes the gospels refer to the Holy Spirit (who). A person. But not a third person. THE Holy Spirit refers to Christ, Himself.

Consider:

Christ is Holy. The Holy One of God. So it would be accurate to describe Him as holy.

"We have come to believe and to know that you are the Holy One of God." John 6:69

God is the Most Holy One. Christ is the Holy One. Just as the temple had a Holy place that one had to pass through in order to reach the Most Holy. The temple set up is a physical representation of spiritual reality.

Christ is also the Spirit.

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into His image with intensifying glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.


So Christ is the Holy Spirit.


Peace again to you, and to your household,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Peace to you Ted,

If a person, which person? Is he someone we can know and talk to and hear from?

As a Trinitarian I accept the Holy Spirit as a person named the Holy Spirit...in other words, asking which person is a misnomer.

But this is not a name.

Christ has a name. Christ is a person.

God has a name. God is a person.

There is no third name; there is no third person.

However, when the Holy Spirit is referring to a person, then that person is the Christ.

The ONE mediator between man and God. (1timothy 2:5) The ONE Teacher we have been given. (Matthew 23:8-10)

Some people cannot hear Him as they close out HIS 'words' as interfering thoughts in their minds...

This is true, but this is true of Christ. Because Christ speaks to everyone (though not everyone listens to His voice or recognizes Him as the One speaking).

But not everyone receives holy spirit (that which Christ breathed out upon His apostles, and which others later received at Pentecost, and which we also receive if/when we are chosen and anointed).



We are anointed with holy spirit (not a person, but the blood/breath/seed of JAH). That is the spirit that has been given to Christ by His Father without end, the water of life which Christ gives to whomever He chooses. (Rev 22:17)


Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

[Replying to post 37 by tam]

For anyone who might be finding it difficult to accept or understand the words "holy spirit" as being sometimes personified and sometimes not personified, remember:

Life, personified, is Christ.


But there is also life (something we are given) that is not personified.


Yet, the Life (I am the Way, the Truth, the Life) = Christ.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

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