What does 1 Thessalonians 4:14 mean?

[Checkpoint]

The immediate context is this passage from 1 Thessalonians 4.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

So, how do you read, what do you understand, is the intended meaning of the words in bold above?

To help us along, tell us whether you see them as primarily referring to verses 13 and 14, or to verses 15 to 17.

Please note however, this thread is not about other issues you may view as being related, such as the details of prophecy.

It is about the fact of the second coming and the resurrection that then occurs.

[polonius]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

God will "bring with him [Jesus]" other people to heaven.

Correct me if I got the wrong impression, but you seem to be saying the "will bring" of verse 14 refers to Christ taking them with him to heaven after they meet, having been resurrected.

Yes or no?

Well the verse says it's God that will "bring" Christ (him) but yes, other people will also be brought to heaven "with" him (Christ).

after they meet? I don't know what "after they meet" means. I don't know who the "they" in your question refers to or what meeting you are asking about or what event you are saying this meeting will be "after", so I cannot address this part of your question.

As I said, we believe that "others" ( those that "die in christ" that God will "bring with him (Christ)" will be raised to heave. The whole point of Paul's letter (apart from to comfort the grieving of course) is to explain that all the anointed that have died will arrive in heaven at the same time. ( see my first post above)

having been resurrected the "bringing them to him" *is* the resurrection, so again I don't quite understand what you are asking?

RESPONSE: No. The whole point is to claim that the Second Coming will happen during Jesus' and Paul's generation.

Of course, it didn't!

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 11 by polonius.advice]

Well, we have a difference of opinion. That's very common over in this subforum, TD&D where everything essentially boils down to interpretation... We will have to agree to disagree on that point.

JW

[polonius]

[Replying to post 11 by polonius.advice]

Well, we have a difference of opinion. That's very common over in this subforum, TD&D where everything essentially boils down to interpretation... We will have to agree to disagree on that point.

JW

RESPONSE: Yes. I go by the plain meaning of words, not what some religious group tells me I have to believe remain a member.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 13 by polonius.advice]

Good for you, congratulations. As long as you're happy with that method, stick to it.

Be well,

JW

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 4 by onewithhim]

ALL of the chosen ones will come with him in the final confrontation with the wicked elements of the world.

Am I correct in reading this as being your understanding of te meaning intended in Paul's phrase "will bring with him"?

Please clarify what event you specifically referred to by your words "will come with".

Yes, that is my understanding.

[onewithhim]

The immediate context is this passage from 1 Thessalonians 4.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep.
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

So, how do you read, what do you understand, is the intended meaning of the words in bold above?

To help us along, tell us whether you see them as primarily referring to verses 13 and 14, or to verses 15 to 17.

Please note however, this thread is not about other issues you may view as being related, such as the details of prophecy.

It is about the fact of the second coming and the resurrection that then occurs.

Yes, he's talking about "the coming of the Lord" in these last days. He verifies the idea of "the sleep of the dead" as well, showing that before the Lord comes there will have been many who were still "asleep." They will be resurrected and "changed" when they are called by Jesus during the "last days" and ALL of the chosen ones will come with him in the final confrontation with the wicked elements of the world.

RESPONSE: I can list Jesus' claims for a return during the lifetime of those then alive if you like, but you should be able to locate them on your own. Jesus made it abundantly clear that he would return during his generation.

Jesus was not in error. He was not in error because he was not speaking of his own generation when he mentioned those of "this generation." I have explained it previously
ad nauseum. If you won't accept SOME of what I post, there is no sense in arguing incessantly about the SAME subject! I know that Jesus was not in error. You apparently believe that he was. I'll take my chances with HIM.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

God will "bring with him [Jesus]" other people to heaven.

Correct me if I got the wrong impression, but you seem to be saying the "will bring" of verse 14 refers to Christ taking them with him to heaven after they meet, having been resurrected.

Yes or no?

Well the verse says it's God that will "bring" Christ (him) but yes, other people will also be brought to heaven "with" him (Christ).

after they meet? I don't know what "after they meet" means. I don't know who the "they" in your question refers to or what meeting you are asking about or what event you are saying this meeting will be "after", so I cannot address this part of your question.

As I said, we believe that "others" ( those that "die in christ" that God will "bring with him (Christ)" will be raised to heave. The whole point of Paul's letter (apart from to comfort the grieving of course) is to explain that all the anointed that have died will arrive in heaven at the same time. ( see my first post above)

having been resurrected the "bringing them to him" *is* the resurrection, so again I don't quite understand what you are asking?

The meeting is the one stated in verse 17.

Nowhere does Paul say those resurrected will "arrive in heav en".

Paul does not say God will "bring" Christ.

He says God will "bring" those who have fallen asleep.

What does he mean by "bring", then?

There are at least three possibilities that have been claimed.

The first is that they will be taken to heaven.

The second is they will be brought from heaven, having been waiting there in their "intermediate" life between death and resurrection. This is a common religious view.

The third reading is that they will be brought back to life in resurrection as Christ had been.

Hope that clarifies.

[JehovahsWitness]

Nowhere does Paul say those resurrected will "arrive in heaven".

So? So what?! Are we not here trying to understand what he said? ie take what he wrote and try and deduce what he meant? Logically if anointed Christians are born and live their lives on earth, but will spend eternity in heaven with God, then they will at some point have to "arrive" in heaven no?

Paul does not say God will "bring" Christ. He says God will "bring" those who have fallen asleep.

No it does not. That would make the direct object plural (them). The verse doesn't say "God will bring them[3]" it says "God will bring"with him [3] those who have fallen asleep". Look again.

"...even so God[1] will bring with him* [2] those who have fallen asleep in Jesus [3]

If the "him" were God himself, then it would read "God will bring TO him" since God the Father never descended into death.

What does he mean by "bring", then?

See my post #2. I have already fully explained.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 17 by Checkpoint]

There are at least three possibilities that have been claimed: The first is that they will be taken to heaven.

I agree, those that die in Christ will indeed be taken to heaven, God will bring them there. They have to die first of course, a human cannot get to heaven without first dying and being given a spirit body (see 1 Cor 15:44).

The third reading is that they will be brought back to life in resurrection as Christ had been.

Yes, they will be brought back to life in heaven (when someone dies and the are brought back to life we call that a "resurrection"). They will die on earth and be brought to live in heaven. This will be when God resurrects them in spirit bodies to be with him in heaven. Unless I'm missing something, this not a third option it is effectively option #1 expressed in different words.






JW

The second is they will be brought from heaven, having been waiting there in their "intermediate" life between death and resurrection. This is a common religious view.

I couldn't care less if its common or not; I don't believe this.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

God will "bring with him [Jesus]" other people to heaven.

Correct me if I got the wrong impression, but you seem to be saying the "will bring" of verse 14 refers to Christ taking them with him to heaven after they meet, having been resurrected.

Yes or no?

Well the verse says it's God that will "bring" Christ (him) but yes, other people will also be brought to heaven "with" him (Christ).

after they meet? I don't know what "after they meet" means. I don't know who the "they" in your question refers to or what meeting you are asking about or what event you are saying this meeting will be "after", so I cannot address this part of your question.

As I said, we believe that "others" ( those that "die in christ" that God will "bring with him (Christ)" will be raised to heave. The whole point of Paul's letter (apart from to comfort the grieving of course) is to explain that all the anointed that have died will arrive in heaven at the same time. ( see my first post above)

having been resurrected the "bringing them to him" *is* the resurrection, so again I don't quite understand what you are asking?

The meeting is the one stated in verse 17.

Nowhere does Paul say those resurrected will "arrive in heav en".

Paul does not say God will "bring" Christ.

He says God will "bring" those who have fallen asleep.

What does he mean by "bring", then?

There are at least three possibilities that have been claimed.

The first is that they will be taken to heaven.

The second is they will be brought from heaven, having been waiting there in their "intermediate" life between death and resurrection. This is a common religious view.

The third reading is that they will be brought back to life in resurrection as Christ had been.

Hope that clarifies.

I thought I mentioned before that "bring with him" would refer to the time when Jesus comes to rid the planet of all wickedness. He will bring with him all those who have been chosen to rule with him in heaven. That is how we know that all of the anointed will be in heaven before Armageddon. At least that is my understanding. Correct me if I'm wrong.

There is no "intermediate life" for the anointed ones or for anyone else. As JW already said, they have been asleep in death right up until the moment Jesus called them out---the First Resurrection---to be with him in heaven. It was also said that the anointed ones started to be gathered to heaven in 1914. They will ALL be there in heaven by the time Armageddon breaks out.

It can also be said that GOD, Jehovah, will also bring those anointed ones at Armageddon. The Scriptures speak of Jehovah AND Jesus coming jointly to execute judgment.

"For look! Jehovah is coming forth from his place to call to account the error of the inhabitant of the land against him." (Isaiah 26:21)

"'Suddenly there will come to His temple the true Lord [YHWH], whom you people are seeking, AND the messenger of the covenant in whom you are delighting. Look! He will certainly come,' Jehovah of armies has said." (Malachi 3:1)

(See Insight on the Scriptures Vol. I, page 81)



So, Jesus AND Jehovah will come at Armageddon and will bring the 144,000 with them.