JESUS IS NOT YHWH

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Sat May 06, 2017 3:07 pm

Jesus prayed to YHWH, the Father, not to himself. (E.g., Matthew 26:39,42; John 11:41,42; John 17:1-26.) Would he have been praying to himself?

He continually referred to himself as "God's SON," not YHWH Himself. (John 5:19; John 8:28,29; John 10:36; John 17:1.) Even the Jews who hated him recognized that fact (John 19:7). Can he be his own Son?

He applied Isaiah 61:1,2 to himself, at Luke 4:17-21, showing that he was the one anointed BY YHWH, and sent BY YHWH. There are incontrovertibly two Persons mentioned in the passage, and YHWH is the One calling the shots. The anointed one does what YHWH wants. How could they be the same Person?

Psalm 110 is also applied to Jesus at Acts 2:34,35. He is the "Lord," or Messiah, that YHWH speaks to. Was YHWH talking to Himself?

I think that just these few points would show plainly that Jesus is not YHWH. Can anyone explain how THESE REFERENCES, ABOVE, can possibly agree with the premise that Jesus is YHWH? I'm not asking for other Scriptures to be brought in without commenting ON the verses I am asking about. Please give me your reasoning concerning these particular Scriptures. Thank you.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:47 am

Donray wrote: [Replying to post 61 by onewithhim]

You do realize that 99% of Christians don't believe like you do and have more religious experts on their side?

Why don't you just point out where each of the 50 points are dead wrong?

I understand that you must believe what you were taught by our church. But the JWs are a new religion and was started by a person that was not even a religion expert.

Don't YOU realize that Jesus said that the majority would be WRONG? That means that your 99% of your co-believers AND the "experts" are WRONG even though they are the majority?

I have shown, time after time, why your points are wrong. It's been years now. You have just ignored what I have presented. Your main argument seems to be that I have to be wrong because I am of the minority. That argument won't work.

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are MANY who enter through it. For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are FEW who find it." (Matt.7:13,14, NASB)

So much for your majority.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:55 am

Donray wrote:
Elijah John wrote: [Replying to post 66 by Donray]

Majority opinion is not how "right" is defined. But I will grant you, the majority has endorsed the Trinity. Doesn't make it real, nor does it make it right.
You did not respond to my about democracy were the majority define what is right.

Please give a good example where the majority does not determine what is right. For example a jury determine what is a right verdict. You might disagree with a majority, but that does not make you right.

99% of Christians believe the trinity is correct. They have thousands of years of facts to back up this idea. The Vatican most likely has the best translations of the bible and a vast number of scholars.

But lets discuss serval points starting with:

John 5:23: so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. If Jesus is not fully God, then His words in verse 23 are nothing short of blasphemy! What created being could say that we should honor him just as we honor the Father? Clearly, Jesus is claiming to be God.

That is absurd. That Jesus should be honored in no way EQUATES him with the Father! Certainly he should receive honor for being obedient and fulfilling what the Father wanted him to do. (Phil.2:8-11) In no way is Jesus claiming to be God.

99% of so-called Christians are wrong, as Jesus said the majority WOULD be. Read Matthew 7:13,14 if you would.

Donray · Post by **Donray** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 12:19 pm

onewithhim wrote: 99% of so-called Christians are wrong, as Jesus said the majority WOULD be. Read Matthew 7:13,14 if you would.

Why don't you red Matthew and point out were 99% is mentioned. I don't understand the need to lie about what it says. Again you are applying your bias to what it says instead of taking it as it is. So, aging where is 99% mentioned? Where is the where majority mentioned?

If I have 100 people you are implying that only one could get though a narrow gate. This is totally incorrect. It says nothing about people being wrong about Jesus being God.

I wish religious people would stop making up what they think bible says.

All the passage means is that few will get to haven. Jesus was saying that only those that follow the laws of the OT will get to heaven. Not many people follow the LAWS.

Donray · Post by **Donray** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:14 pm

Elijah John wrote:
Donray wrote: [Replying to post 61 by onewithhim]

You do realize that 99% of Christians don't believe like you do and have more religious experts on their side?

Why don't you just point out where each of the 50 points are dead wrong?

I understand that you must believe what you were taught by our church. But the JWs are a new religion and was started by a person that was not even a religion expert.
If you want to play that game, giving us 50 reasons "Jesus is God", how about you refute these 100 reasons Jesus is not God?

http://progressive.church/100-reasons-jesus-is-not-god/

It took the Church roughly 300 years to finally decide that Jesus was "God".

If it were a clear and undisputed fact, shouldn't the doctrine of Jesus Divinity have been clear right off the bat?

JW may be a relatively new religion, but many of their beliefs are ancient. Especially their understanding of the nature of Jesus in relation to God.

They are very "Arian".

The problem is that I am saying the Jesus is a demigod and the god of the OT. He is the god of the NT.

The 100 you showed have nothing with disproving this that there are at least two gods and possible many more.

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:25 pm

Donray wrote:
Elijah John wrote:
Donray wrote: [Replying to post 61 by onewithhim]

You do realize that 99% of Christians don't believe like you do and have more religious experts on their side?

Why don't you just point out where each of the 50 points are dead wrong?

I understand that you must believe what you were taught by our church. But the JWs are a new religion and was started by a person that was not even a religion expert.
If you want to play that game, giving us 50 reasons "Jesus is God", how about you refute these 100 reasons Jesus is not God?

http://progressive.church/100-reasons-jesus-is-not-god/

It took the Church roughly 300 years to finally decide that Jesus was "God".

If it were a clear and undisputed fact, shouldn't the doctrine of Jesus Divinity have been clear right off the bat?

JW may be a relatively new religion, but many of their beliefs are ancient. Especially their understanding of the nature of Jesus in relation to God.

They are very "Arian".
The problem is that I am saying the Jesus is a demigod and the god of the OT. He is the god of the NT.

The 100 you showed have nothing with disproving this that there are at least two gods and possible many more.

Even IF (big "IF") there are more than one God, those 100 reasons demonstrate that Jesus is not one of them.

Certainly not the Almighty.

The God of the NT is not Jesus, it is the Father. Jesus affirms this as does Paul in his apostolic salutations and several other places.

Donray · Post by **Donray** » Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:19 pm

Elijah John wrote: The God of the NT is not Jesus, it is the Father. Jesus affirms this as does Paul in his apostolic salutations and several other places.

Actually Paul did have Jesus as a god. He states several times that Jesus existed before Arkham and was there when the universe was created.

Paul can actually be considered the creator of the Christian Church, and as such his writing were some of the bases for the trinity.

From https://static1.squarespace.com/static/ ... esson1.pdf

Prior to His earthly ministry, Jesus " along with God the Father (1Cor. 8:6) and God the Holy Spirit (Gen. 1:1-2; Job 33:4) " created our world (Eph. 3:9; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:1-2). John 1:1 says, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The expression the Word is another name for Jesus (John 1:14-15; 1 John 1:1-4; Rev. 19:13). John 1:3 (also referring to Jesus as the Word) says: All things were made by Him [Jesus]; and without Him was not anything made that was made.

Other Bible writers also declare Jesus Christs pre-existence. In Colossians 1:17, Paul especially confirmed Jesus participation in creation when he wrote: He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. (NIV) In 2 Corinthians 8:9, Paul supported the truth of Jesus pre-existence a second time: For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich. Dont misread this. God is not talking about Jesus hooking you up to become a millionaire "Not! Paul is referring to heaven, Jesus true home. Jesus gave up untold riches to become poor for us by becoming a man born into a poor family. However, it is only by becoming a man that He could die on the cross and save us from our sins.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:09 am

Donray wrote:
onewithhim wrote: 99% of so-called Christians are wrong, as Jesus said the majority WOULD be. Read Matthew 7:13,14 if you would.
Why don't you red Matthew and point out were 99% is mentioned. I don't understand the need to lie about what it says. Again you are applying your bias to what it says instead of taking it as it is. So, aging where is 99% mentioned? Where is the where majority mentioned?

If I have 100 people you are implying that only one could get though a narrow gate. This is totally incorrect. It says nothing about people being wrong about Jesus being God.

I wish religious people would stop making up what they think bible says.

All the passage means is that few will get to haven. Jesus was saying that only those that follow the laws of the OT will get to heaven. Not many people follow the LAWS.

YOU brought up the claim that 99% of Christians disagree with me. That is where I got the 99%, thank you very much.

There are many other verses that say a lot about Jesus not being God. That was not what I was addressing by bringing up Matthew 7:13,14.

Those verses don't even say that people are on the road to HEAVEN. It says they are on the road to LIFE on the narrow way. You've got such a cluttered up and confused theology that you'll never get anything straight if you don't restructure your viewpoints.

And Jesus wasn't addressing a problem about people not following the LAWS. He was talking about people who would claim to be FOLLOWING HIM. Don't you read verses that come before and after a verse? Check out Matthew 7:21-23, if you would be so kind.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:15 am

Donray wrote:
Elijah John wrote: The God of the NT is not Jesus, it is the Father. Jesus affirms this as does Paul in his apostolic salutations and several other places.
Actually Paul did have Jesus as a god. He states several times that Jesus existed before Arkham and was there when the universe was created.

Paul can actually be considered the creator of the Christian Church, and as such his writing were some of the bases for the trinity.

From https://static1.squarespace.com/static/ ... esson1.pdf

Prior to His earthly ministry, Jesus " along with God the Father (1Cor. 8:6) and God the Holy Spirit (Gen. 1:1-2; Job 33:4) " created our world (Eph. 3:9; Col. 1:16; Heb. 1:1-2). John 1:1 says, In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The expression the Word is another name for Jesus (John 1:14-15; 1 John 1:1-4; Rev. 19:13). John 1:3 (also referring to Jesus as the Word) says: All things were made by Him [Jesus]; and without Him was not anything made that was made.

Other Bible writers also declare Jesus Christs pre-existence. In Colossians 1:17, Paul especially confirmed Jesus participation in creation when he wrote: He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. (NIV) In 2 Corinthians 8:9, Paul supported the truth of Jesus pre-existence a second time: For you know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich. Dont misread this. God is not talking about Jesus hooking you up to become a millionaire "Not! Paul is referring to heaven, Jesus true home. Jesus gave up untold riches to become poor for us by becoming a man born into a poor family. However, it is only by becoming a man that He could die on the cross and save us from our sins.

That is irresponsible pronouncement by you. The fact that Jesus participated in the creation of everything doesn't make him God, and Paul NEVER wrote anything that would indicate that he thought Jesus was God. Jesus' pre-existence doesn't make him God, either. He came into existence long before the planets were made.

Nothing you have said supports any idea that Jesus is God Almighty.

Donray · Post by **Donray** » Thu Jun 08, 2017 11:44 am

[Replying to post 78 by onewithhim]

You did not read my replies.

I never said that Jesus was God. I am saying that according to the bible and you seem to agree that Jesus is a god not the god of the OT. You agree he was around before the planets were created and Paul does say this.

Was Jesus and angle? The bible does state that he is the son of God. A deity in his own respect and Paul indicates.

Where you a problem is that somehow the devil has changed the meaning of words like god, demigod, divine, etc. Likewise you think a bible from 1550 written in Greek is the official bible and is the same as the originals written other languages and nobody in 1500 years in coping changed anything.

Religious scholars agree that most of what is written that Jesus said he never said. Jesus was Jew and believed in the LAW. Christians made up the stuff about Jesus not needing to follow the LAW.

I am with you, Jesus was a human not born of a virgin, died and the cross and was buried in a mass grave like ALL people executed on the cross.

So, bottom line is you and Jews are correct to not worship Jesus or think he is divine.

onewithhim · Post by **onewithhim** » Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:50 am

Donray wrote: [Replying to post 78 by onewithhim]

You did not read my replies.

I never said that Jesus was God. I am saying that according to the bible and you seem to agree that Jesus is a god not the god of the OT. You agree he was around before the planets were created and Paul does say this.

Was Jesus and angle? The bible does state that he is the son of God. A deity in his own respect and Paul indicates.

Where you a problem is that somehow the devil has changed the meaning of words like god, demigod, divine, etc. Likewise you think a bible from 1550 written in Greek is the official bible and is the same as the originals written other languages and nobody in 1500 years in coping changed anything.

Religious scholars agree that most of what is written that Jesus said he never said. Jesus was Jew and believed in the LAW. Christians made up the stuff about Jesus not needing to follow the LAW.

I am with you, Jesus was a human not born of a virgin, died and the cross and was buried in a mass grave like ALL people executed on the cross.

So, bottom line is you and Jews are correct to not worship Jesus or think he is divine.

I read all your replies. Perhaps I misunderstood. I don't know what you are saying about the 1550 Bible version, that I seem to think something or other. I can't follow that. Sorry.

People who don't believe the Bible nor believe in God or His Son love to try and discredit the Scriptures. They may be scholars, but their opinions are not shared by all scholars. It is NOT unanimous among scholars that Jesus didn't actually say what the Bible attributes to him.

I do not believe that Jesus was a regular person; I DO believe that he was born of a virgin, and I guess you don't read my posts very well because I never said he wasn't born of a virgin. He wasn't buried in a mass grave, either.

I do not worship Jesus as God Almighty. I believe that he is the SON OF GOD. I do not believe as the Jews do that he was just a deluded, misdirected Jewish boy whose death meant nothing.