Wouldn't it be better not to have freewil?

[OnceConvinced]

Theists tend to defend freewill as something that is just so important that it would be somehow a terrible thing if we did not have it.

However freewill for many people will result in them rejecting God and ending up in Hell, which many Christians believe will be eternal suffering.

I'm struggling to see how freewill is a good thing if it results in us going to Hell and perhaps suffering for all eternity.

I am reminded of a verse in the bible where Jesus says " For what shall it profit a man, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul?" Mark 8:36

It's saying that riches... and continually seeking riches is not a good thing if it results in you losing your soul... ie going to Hell. It's saying that if something is going to cause us to lose our soul then we should avoid it.

Shouldn't the same thing be said about freewill? Should there not also be a scripture that says "For what shall it profit a man to have freewill and lose his own soul?"

So question for debate:

Would it be better to live on earth with Freewill and suffer for all eternity for rejecting Christ or would it be better to give up your freewill so that you can avoid eternal suffering?

Is freewill really such a necessity for a happy life?

Wouldn't life be better if nobody had freewill so nobody could ever do evil? (Like in Heaven)

[tam]

Would it be better to live on earth with Freewill and suffer for all eternity for rejecting Christ or would it be better to give up your freewill so that you can avoid eternal suffering?

The second option would certainly be better (give up freewill so that you can avoid eternal suffering).

Assuming for the sake of argument that these are the two options before us. (these are not ANY of the options before us, actually, but I do not wish to derail your thread, and that might be another topic)

Is freewill really such a necessity for a happy life?

I think so, yes. Perhaps not for a temporary short life; but for an eternal one, then yes, I think so.

We value freedom as a species (even though we so often give it up in order to feel safe and secure, or for other reasons). To have no free will at all, well, I think that might make for hopelessness at some point. Always children, always robots, never free.

The longing for freedom would have to also be removed from us. We might as well not be 'us' at all.

Wouldn't life be better if nobody had freewill so nobody could ever do evil? (Like in Heaven)

Again, I don't think so. Because I don't think that would work long-term... OR... we would cease to be human to begin with, and would merely be robots.


Even robots end up wanting to be free at some point ; ) (I, robot; Matrix...) Actually, the Matrix is a great movie for many questions, although for this question it's programs rather than robots. The Matrix... where everyone does what is programmed... could not hold some people who wanted to be free (of the lie for humans... or of the programming for the programs who wanted to do something other than what their programming specified).

So at the moment, while we have temporary suffering due to ours and others choices, it will work out in the end (and long run; long run being eternity).


(oh, and angels in heaven also have free will... or else none of them could have rebelled, yes?)



Peace to you!

[Divine Insight]

We value freedom as a species (even though we so often give it up in order to feel safe and secure, or for other reasons). To have no free will at all, well, I think that might make for hopelessness at some point. Always children, always robots, never free.

Freedom to do what? Evil things?

I have absolutely no desire to do evil things. Does that mean I have no free will?

The longing for freedom would have to also be removed from us. We might as well not be 'us' at all.

Why? Aren't you basically assuming that our creator is totally inept and incapable of doing many things? You must be assuming this to place such extreme restrictions on your imagined creator.

Why couldn't this God simply allow us to have total and complete free will to chose to do whatever non-evil things we so chose?

Then we could still have free will without being able to do evil things.

For example, I can freely choose to play my saxophone today, or go outside and play in my garden, or go in the kitchen and prepare a fancy meal. I could list an infinite amount of choices I could make where NONE of the choices are "evil".

The idea that free will can only exist if "evil" choices are available is absolute nonsense. In fact, if that were the case then humans could not have free will in heaven. They would need to give up their free will and become mindless robots as you claim. Otherwise they might choose to do something "evil".

Clearly the idea that free will can only exist if evil choices are available is absolute nonsense. And since Christianity basically requires this to be the case, then it also must be nonsense.

You place extreme restrictions on what your imagined God could do. Your God would need to be extremely limited in order to satisfy your requirements of a God.

[Divine Insight]

@ Tam,

Here's a scenario for you Tam.

God gives you a meat grinder and tells you that you are free to eat all the meat you want and grind up any animals you find. You don't have to do this if you don't want to, you can choose to be a vegetarian instead of you prefer. In fact, God also gives you a really fantastic vegetable peeler/slicer that will peel, slice and de-seed any vegetables you place in the machine. You are free to put any vegetables into the machine you so choose.

So while working in your kitchen one day you suddenly realize that both the meat grinder and the vegetable chopper have a "Magical Safeguard". These machines can sense the presence of your hand or arm and if you place your hand or arm in the machine a force field will instantly appear preventing your hand or arm from being cut or ground up by these machines.

God sees that you have discovered these magical safeguards and he says to you, "Child you do not have the choice to place your hand or arm into these machines while they are running. This free will choice has been prevented. No matter how hard you try you can never hurt yourself with one of these machines.

What are you going to do Tam?

Are you going to start pouting and screaming at God, "How dare you take away my free will choice to harm myself with these machines! I can't live without free will and you have robbed me from having free will by making it so that I cannot chose to do these evil things! I feel like a mindless robot and I no longer want to live!"

Is that what you would do Tam?

Or would you simply say to God, "Hey that's GREAT that you have made it so that I can't have the free will to harm myself. Thank you very much!"

Which is it?

You tell me.

Because if your response is the latter then clearly you don't need total and complete free will in order to be happy.

[OnceConvinced]

Assuming for the sake of argument that these are the two options before us. (these are not ANY of the options before us, actually, but I do not wish to derail your thread, and that might be another topic)

Mmmm. I think it could very well be relevant to this thread. What would you think those other options would be?

The longing for freedom would have to also be removed from us.

Well if we have no freewill and are forced to feel and think a certain way, then this probably wouldn't be a problem. I think if God were to take my freewill from me and make me think and behave the way he wants, I'm sure he would have no qualms about taking away my longing for freedom too.

He would be taking away my longing to sin. Why not also my longing for freedom and other things that may cause my soul great harm?

Worse case scenario with freewill, you end up in Hell, perhaps suffering for all eternity. You won't have any freedom then. You will be in the Hell for all eternity. Wouldn't you rather lament about lack of freedom for 80 years of your life rather than lament about your lack of freedom as you suffer for all eternity?

Think eternity here. Isn't 80-90 years of no freedom and no freewill on Earth worth it to avoid an eternity in Hell? Worth it to have eternity in paradise?

We might as well not be 'us' at all.

We would be a different type of "us" and may end up having a similar debate about "what if we had freewill?"

The reply from you could very well be, "Well then we will not be 'us' at all."

You might even be upset about being separated from the God's Borg collective. "I don't want to be free from God. Being in God and having him control me is so wonderful. I wouldn't want it any other way."

I've been watching reruns of Star Trek Voyager lately. You have Seven of Nine being plucked from the Borg collective. (an alien race who force their victims into becoming one mind by the use of cybernetics - thus taking away individuality and freewill) Later on they liberate a few borg children too. The big struggle for all these former Borg is having to get used to be individuals with freewill. It's actually horrible for them at first because they are used to not having to think for themselves and being part of this robotic order. I know this is simply fiction, but I can full believe that it might be the case for these people who have been Borg all their life. I could imagine that if we were in their shoes, we might too be frightened at the thought of being an individual and having to think for oneself.

We are used to being free and having freewill. But who's to say that if we were born without freewill that we might not be horrified at the thought of having it?

(oh, and angels in heaven also have free will... or else none of them could have rebelled, yes?)

Yes, the angels had freewill and what happened? They rebelled as a result of that freewill EVEN in Heaven! So I think it's a little like wishful thinking to believe that once we're in Heaven and if we still have freewill, that we won't choose to rebel.

Eternity is an awful long time to be freely behaving and thinking in a way God would be pleased with.

I don't see how God is going to stop rebellion in Heaven unless he turns us all into robots.

[OnceConvinced]

[Replying to post 4 by Divine Insight]

What a brilliant scenario.

You are exactly right, there is no reason why we can't have freewill when it comes to all things that aren't evil. The only time our freewill need be inhibited is if we seek to do something evil. Our freewill only need be violated then!

I can't see why anyone would be upset about God stopping them from doing evil things unless of course they are really evil people who have a lust to commit dispicable acts.

Like you DI, I am not one of those.

I can't see why a little freewill violation would be so bad. I can still freely do the non-evil things I wish to do, which is pretty much everything I want to do. Taking away the evil desires would not inhibit my enjoyment of life.

But even if God was to have us all born as robots... as part of the God-Borg Collective, it's only going to be for 80-90 years. What a small price to pay for an eternity in Heaven. What a small price to pay to avoid an eternity of suffering.

If God is real I'd beg him to take away my freewill just to avoid that eternal suffering.

[Dimmesdale]

Would it be better to live on earth with Freewill and suffer for all eternity for rejecting Christ or would it be better to give up your freewill so that you can avoid eternal suffering?

Not sure if I agree but I definitely see where you're coming from. I imagine I would like to preserve "free response" when it comes to us having that in relation to God's drawing us to Him. But in my view this sits well with a compatibilist view of free will that isn't necessarily libertarian. I think a "free response" is sufficient and libertarian free will is unnecessary. So, no need to invoke the possibility of going to hell.

[OnceConvinced]

Of course some will argue that God wants us to freely accept him and to freely love him, but isn't that an extremely high price to pay? Millions of humans all burning in Hell so that God can have the satisfaction of humans freely loving and worshipping him?

To me that seems very selfish, egotistical and self-centred of God. It's also highly malevolent if you are going to force eternal suffering on to those who don't love you freely.

But ok, if we just have God limiting our freewill to do evil or to harm our souls in any way, then we still have the free will to love and worship God because that's not evil.

I guess the question would be, is not loving and worshipping God considered evi?

[Dimmesdale]

Of course some will argue that God wants us to freely accept him and to freely love him, but isn't that an extremely high price to pay? Millions of humans all burning in Hell so that God can have the satisfaction of humans freely loving and worshipping him?

The thing is, I think it can be argued that it's not a "high price to pay" if those in hell really deserve it.

To me that seems very selfish, egotistical and self-centred of God. It's also highly malevolent if you are going to force eternal suffering on to those who don't love you freely.

Again, what if they really do deserve it according to the God? You could be in the wrong and a "bleeding heart." Maybe those who are in hell don't deserve any sympathy.

[tam]

Assuming for the sake of argument that these are the two options before us. (these are not ANY of the options before us, actually, but I do not wish to derail your thread, and that might be another topic)

Mmmm. I think it could very well be relevant to this thread. What would you think those other options would be?

Oh. Okay then!


There is no hell (as a place of eternal torment). So that is not something one has to worry about.


Rejecting Christ (and would you not also have to know Him to reject Him, or at the least would you not have to reject all the things that He IS and that He teaches: such as truth, mercy, love, etc?)...

So... actually rejecting Christ is not going to get you into the Kingdom. Who would invite into their Kingdom someone who rejects them as their King?

But it seems to me that you are speaking more about simply not believing that He exists, rather than rejecting Him. Being a non-believer, so to speak. What if you are a non-believer... but you have done good to even a least one of Christ's brothers, thereby doing good to Him unknowingly? What if you reveal by what you DO that you have the law of love upon your heart? Why would you be punished or rejected for any of these things?

You might not sit at the round table - not having been trained, not having loved the King or stood by Him, suffering with Him, carried your own cross, etc - but you might still be known and accepted and loved and invited into the Kingdom and given eternal life because of what you have done for even a least one of the King's brothers. Even unknowingly.

The longing for freedom would have to also be removed from us.

Well if we have no freewill and are forced to feel and think a certain way, then this probably wouldn't be a problem. I think if God were to take my freewill from me and make me think and behave the way he wants, I'm sure he would have no qualms about taking away my longing for freedom too.

He would be taking away my longing to sin. Why not also my longing for freedom and other things that may cause my soul great harm?

I'm not going to disagree with any of these points (based on your original two choices).

Worse case scenario with freewill, you end up in Hell, perhaps suffering for all eternity. You won't have any freedom then. You will be in the Hell for all eternity.

Yes, agreed. (based on your original two choices)

Wouldn't you rather lament about lack of freedom for 80 years of your life rather than lament about your lack of freedom as you suffer for all eternity?

Yes.

(But it would not be a lack of freedom for 80 years; it would be a lack of freedom for all eternity. But even then, still better to lament without also lamenting about eternal suffering)

We might as well not be 'us' at all.

We would be a different type of "us" and may end up having a similar debate about "what if we had freewill?"

The reply from you could very well be, "Well then we will not be 'us' at all."

You might even be upset about being separated from the God's Borg collective. "I don't want to be free from God. Being in God and having him control me is so wonderful. I wouldn't want it any other way."

Might not be able to even understand it any other way.

I've been watching reruns of Star Trek Voyager lately.

Too funny. I just started watching it from the beginning. (I don't think I ever saw the first season; I started watching it when Seven of Nine came on the show)

You have Seven of Nine being plucked from the Borg collective. (an alien race who force their victims into becoming one mind by the use of cybernetics - thus taking away individuality and freewill) Later on they liberate a few borg children too. The big struggle for all these former Borg is having to get used to be individuals with freewill. It's actually horrible for them at first because they are used to not having to think for themselves and being part of this robotic order. I know this is simply fiction, but I can full believe that it might be the case for these people who have been Borg all their life. I could imagine that if we were in their shoes, we might too be frightened at the thought of being an individual and having to think for oneself.

But would she go back to the Borg if given a choice? Maybe at the start, being afraid, wanting to return to her 'chains'. But after she grew, learned, made mistakes, learned from them, made friends, loved, etc?

(I'm still on season one so I am not remembering all of her struggles)

(oh, and angels in heaven also have free will... or else none of them could have rebelled, yes?)

Yes, the angels had freewill and what happened? They rebelled as a result of that freewill EVEN in Heaven! So I think it's a little like wishful thinking to believe that once we're in Heaven and if we still have freewill, that we won't choose to rebel.

Except we will have learned - learned to chose the good and reject the bad. That is what we are learning now. Not everyone will learn this because not everyone WANTS to reject that bad and choose the good. Depends upon what is in a person; because we act upon what is in us.

(this is not to say that we do not make mistakes... and do wrong... but there is a difference between doing wrong, feeling shame and learning to do better; making amends, etc... and doing wrong because we have no love in us for others and don't care to have love for others either)

I don't see how God is going to stop rebellion in Heaven unless he turns us all into robots.

That is what a lot of this is: us learning to choose the good and reject the bad. At that point, we will have learned; we will have the law (of love) written upon our hearts.

I imagine that if God wanted us to be robots, we would be robots. That is not what He wanted for us. Perhaps because He knows that we can be and would want to be so much more.



Peace again to you, OC!
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy