onewithhim wrote:
tam wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote:
tam wrote:The spirit of a man is what descends to the grave, sleeping, conscious of nothing... or the spirit of a man is what is received by Christ, resting (sleeping) under the altar, awaiting the first resurrection.
So the holy ones die, go to heaven but are
still unconscious in heaven? How do they "
cry out" from under the alter if they are unconscious (Rev 6:10)?
Because the Life (Christ) is in their presence. Same way that Christ could have preached to those in the world of the dead when He went there, and the dead could hear Him.
Christ did not preach to "those in the world of the dead."
He did. If He would preach to the imprisoned spirits of angels (spirit beings) in Tartarus, then why would He not also preach to the imprisoned spirits of MAN in sheol, when He descended? Out of love, compassion, and mercy for such ones?
And Sheol is not simply a dug out grave or tomb for the body of the deceased to be buried and decay. The world of the dead consists of lower regions as well (deepest darkeness; tartarus; the abyss; the pit).
For a fire is kindled in My anger, And burns to the lowest part of Sheol, And consumes the earth with its yield, And sets on fire the foundations of the mountains. Deuteronomy 32:22
I have explained what I Peter 3:18,19 means, quite a few times before, but you don't give that any credence.
Just because you have explained what you believe it means, does not mean that your explanation is true, or that I can agree.
The Scripture says: "he went and made proclamation to the spirits now in prison," and continues on: "who were once disobedient...in the days of Noah."(NASB) It does not say that he went "to the world of the dead." How do you arrive at that idea?
Christ descended to the grave (the world of the dead). That comes from other verses. I was not referring to this passage in Peter with regard to Him descending to the world of the dead. He did not simply cease to exist. He went to the world of the dead. As the spirit of all men do (except those in Christ, who go 'under the altar')
He didn't go to the "world of the dead."
He did, as all do (except those who die in Him, after that time).
He went to speak to spirits---spirit persons---who had disobeyed in Noah's day.
He did this as well.
Who were the "spirits" that disobeyed in Noah's day? Genesis 6:2 tells us that it was a certain group of ANGELS ("sons of God") that came down and took human wives for themselves. Peter elaborates on this fact: "For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell [Tartarus], and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; and spared not the old world, but saved Noah...[etc]." (2 Peter 2:4,5, KJV)
Yes, He did this as well.
And Jude further comments: "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains, under darkness, unto the judgment of the great day." (Jude 6, KJV)
Yes.
So....it was the disobedient ANGELS that Jesus visited after his resurrection.
In the world of the dead, during His time there.
It wasn't any dead people.
The spirits of man are in the world of the dead as well, and as questioned at the start, why would He have preached to the imprisoned spirits of rebellious angels, but not the imprisoned spirits of man - many of whom were misled and who were made subject to death because of a decision that the first man (adam) made
for them?
You are misconstruing what Peter said about Jesus going to speak to the spirits in prison. They were DEMONS in "Tartarus"---a darkened spiritual state.
I am not. I was not referring to Peter's words about those spirits.
Your Lord doesn't make these things clear to you?
He does.
Not that there are not (many) things that I do not yet know or understand, of course. Indeed I know and see nothing except what He teaches and/or opens my eyes to see. But there have been many things I have not understood in the past, that He has explained to me since then. So I have no doubt that those things I still have questions on, and do not understand, will be made known to me when a) I am able to hear and understand; and b) in HIS time and according to HIS wisdom.
But...that's right...if what he says conflicts with the scripture you go with what he says, right?
I would believe my Lord over something that is written, since HE is the Truth and the Word of God. And God said to listen to His Son. Plus, my Lord is not subject to the lying pen of the scribes; but the written word IS so subject.
But in this case, He has not told me anything that is in conflict with the scriptures, nor even anything that is against love. There is no scripture that says He did not preach to those spirits (of men) in Sheol when He went there.
I mean... He has the keys to death and hades. He has the keys to the abyss. He preached to those spirits (of angels) imprisoned in Tartarus, who rebelled in the days of Noah. He is certainly
capable of preaching to the spirits of man imprisoned in Sheol as well. Why would He not have done so, out of love and mercy and compassion, while there?
Peace again to you owh, and to your loved ones,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy