Hate the Sin and Love the Sinner

micatala · Post by **micatala** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:17 pm

Many Christians, when accused of being hateful or intolerant because of their statements concerning sin in general or examples of people who are in their view sinning, respond with the phrase 'hate the sin but love the sinner.'

What does this exactly mean?

To ask this question in 'loaded form,' is this phrase just a dodge to try and avoid the criticism that some CHristians harbor hateful attitudes or engage in hateful behavior?

Finally, what is the Biblical justification for this statement? Is there any?

micatala · Post by **micatala** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 10:58 am

Confused wrote:
micatala wrote:You know, just to have everything actually examined, I am going to start another thread on this one.

According to the bible, premarital sex is wrong, correct.
I will put it in the Theology forum, so we can assume the BIble is authoritative for the purposes of that discussion.
I so hate that. Somehow I usually end up looking the fool. Oh well.

Hey, I've spent lots of time studying the Bible and I really don't know the answer either, which is why I asked the question. I've already learned something in the new thread.

After all, part of the reason for the forum is to learn some new things, which actually happens most days for me.

mcbr4481 · Post by **mcbr4481** » Tue Dec 05, 2006 9:53 pm

Well i would look at where he says love your neighbor as you love yourself, so we should love everyone no matter what their belief is. Now whether we like what they do or not is differnt. We should hate the man who kills people, but we should hate the fact that he kills people. So were loving the person, but hating the sin. there for love the person hate the sin.

Maranatha

Confused · Post by **Confused** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:47 am

mcbr4481 wrote:Well i would look at where he says love your neighbor as you love yourself, so we should love everyone no matter what their belief is. Now whether we like what they do or not is differnt. We should hate the man who kills people, but we should hate the fact that he kills people. So were loving the person, but hating the sin. there for love the person hate the sin.

Maranatha

Let me know how that works out for you the first time you have a child come into the ER with bruises and cigarette burns all over their body. Or the 12 year old who was raped. Or the 2 month old who was tortured. It is easy to say love the sinner, hate the sin when you arent' faced with it every day. I don't say hate the sinner, but nor will I ever say love them either. I say hold them accountable for their sins. They own them.

melikio · Post by **melikio** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:50 am

So were loving the person, but hating the sin. there for love the person hate the sin.

Nothing against YOU for saying the above, but that is like stating the "ideal", with no clear method to reaching it.

I can tell you that it almost ALWAYS ends up representing a bunch of misguided, hateful rhetoric, rather than something that is helpful (especially for homosexual people).

This isn't something I've imagined; just talk to but a few homosexual people (and others), who have observed the attitudes of certain "Christians" in action. Most will find that "Hate the Sin and Love the Sinner", somehow ends up as nothing more than HATE THE SINNER, and CALL IT LOVE.

I usually make it a point to NOT tell most Christians anything about my life. I've learned that if I do, it won't be long before a long list of judgemental effects will be leveled at me period. I just can't deal with being dehumanized in that manner anymore; many don't mind (at all) hurting you, to cause a "change" in you. They believe they are doing something for God, yet overlook that they'd never want to be treated the way they treat those they believe are "sinners".

It's indeed a struggle many times, to stick around to endure learning how "X" Christian person will actually "HATE THE SIN". And as soon as I get a hint of that "hatred" being turned at the "sinner", I'm GONE. For the reality is that love bears the truth via patience, kindness, gentleness and self-control.

And I ask, is it a coincedence that many sinners being "treated" by Christians don't sense LOVE? No, it isn't strange they feel that way because many Christians aren't hating the "sin" (exclusively), the reality is that in many cases they are confusing love, with "vengence" toward a person. And that is exactly how some people have been taught to deal with certain sins; and not in a manner which resembles the qualities listed in 1Cor13.

Yes, people seem to enjoy saying, "Love the sinner; Hate the Sin". But many are so TERRIBLE at accomplishing the same; it's sad, disheartening and hypocritical (all at the same time).

-Mel-

Confused · Post by **Confused** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 8:08 am

Does this sound like hate the sin, love the sinner in the OT?
Joshua 7:20

20 Achan replied, "It is true! I have sinned against the LORD, the God of Israel. This is what I have done: 21 When I saw in the plunder a beautiful robe from Babylonia, [f] two hundred shekels [g] of silver and a wedge of gold weighing fifty shekels, [h] I coveted them and took them. They are hidden in the ground inside my tent, with the silver underneath."

22 So Joshua sent messengers, and they ran to the tent, and there it was, hidden in his tent, with the silver underneath. 23 They took the things from the tent, brought them to Joshua and all the Israelites and spread them out before the LORD.

24 Then Joshua, together with all Israel, took Achan son of Zerah, the silver, the robe, the gold wedge, his sons and daughters, his cattle, donkeys and sheep, his tent and all that he had, to the Valley of Achor. 25 Joshua said, "Why have you brought this trouble on us? The LORD will bring trouble on you today."
Then all Israel stoned him, and after they had stoned the rest, they burned them. 26 Over Achan they heaped up a large pile of rocks, which remains to this day. Then the LORD turned from his fierce anger. Therefore that place has been called the Valley of Achor ever since.

There is much more in the OT to support hating the sinner as well as the sin. I am trying to find more aout it in the NT.

melikio · Post by **melikio** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 10:38 am

There is much more in the OT to support hating the sinner as well as the sin. I am trying to find more aout it in the NT.

What?! You mean piling tons of rocks on your brothers/sisters, isn't a "loving" act?

And WHY have we in this society STOPPED punishing people (properly) for such crimes (against man and God)?

I'm of course saying this tongue-in-cheek, but it illuminates some of what behaviors/attitudes might be encouraged by those who take the Bible (somewhat literally) as some kind of instruction guide for dealing with people overall.

Some people are very cruel, and have "biblical" support to apply to the things they do; no matter how cruel they are. In my view, they imagine they can play roles which only God is capable of filling; they forget or misundertstand who they really are. They are about promoting conformity through fear, intimidation and pain; and get frustrated or angry when they are resisted. They practically hate those who resist or oppose them; they see no compromise for others but are a living example of compromise (not perfect people).

If Jesus existed (I think he did), He knew people were less-than-capable to discern things at the level which He did. He had powers that other people did not possess; and there is no "sin" recorded against Him. He was perfect.

People who read and even believe in the Bible, are not "perfect" judges. But so often, we see how they are either ignorant or forgetful of that reality; that they are truly EQUAL in status and righteousness with billions of other people. Yet they imagine they are FIT to condemn others in the name of God, Jesus and the Bible. These are the people who easily confuse hating sin, with hating the sinner; they THINK they are doing "RIGHT" and at the same time effectively condemning themselves by pretending to be better than those they judge; the ones who trip over even little things, because they have social and spiritual LOGS in their eyes.

-Mel-

mcbr4481 · Post by **mcbr4481** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 3:28 pm

Confused wrote Let me know how that works out for you the first time you have a child come into the ER with bruises and cigarette burns all over their body. Or the 12 year old who was raped. Or the 2 month old who was tortured. It is easy to say love the sinner, hate the sin when you arent' faced with it every day. I don't say hate the sinner, but nor will I ever say love them either. I say hold them accountable for their sins. They own them.

Thats Gods job, revenge is his and his alone.

johned · Post by **johned** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 5:09 pm

JOhn Wesley, (founder of the Methodists i believe) wrote a few hundred years ago in commentary regarding Jude 22-23 about this notion of loving the sinner and hating the sin.

(which says .....Be merciful to those who doubt; 23 save others by snatching them from the fire; to others show mercy, mixed with fearhating even the clothing stained by corrupted flesh. )

Wesley- Meantime watch over others, as well as yourselves, and give them such help as their various needs require. For instance, Some, that are wavering in judgment, staggered by others' or by their own evil reasoning, endeavour more deeply to convince of the whole truth as it is in Jesus. Some snatch, with a swift and strong hand, out of the fire of sin and temptation. On others show compassion in a milder and gentler way; though still with a jealous fear, lest yourselves be infected with the disease you endeavour to cure. See, therefore, that while you love the sinners, ye retain the utmost abhorrence of their sin, and of any the least degree of, or approach to, them.

The POint: Wesley said to love the sinner and hate the sin so THAT YOU YOURSELF won't get trapped in what you consider to be the sinful activity you beleive the other to be in.

Said with sincerity, "Love the sinner hate the sin" is a warning for oneself, not a judment toward others. Right?

Confused · Post by **Confused** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:50 pm

mcbr4481 wrote:Confused wrote Let me know how that works out for you the first time you have a child come into the ER with bruises and cigarette burns all over their body. Or the 12 year old who was raped. Or the 2 month old who was tortured. It is easy to say love the sinner, hate the sin when you arent' faced with it every day. I don't say hate the sinner, but nor will I ever say love them either. I say hold them accountable for their sins. They own them.

Thats Gods job, revenge is his and his alone.

Ok, so in the meantime, I will just discharge these children back to these parents and know that God will protect them. Right???

When was revenge ever mentioned?? What did I say about revenge??? I said hold them accountable for their sins. They own them. Did I say stone them to death. Oh no, that was God all throughout the OT.

Don't read into my posts. And don't insult me by adding your own intpretations into them. They are what they are. If I mean something else, I will tell you it. If I am shown I was wrong, I will admit it publicly and apologize. I ask the same out of you.

Confused · Post by **Confused** » Wed Dec 06, 2006 9:53 pm

Johned:Said with sincerity, "Love the sinner hate the sin" is a warning for oneself, not a judment toward others. Right?

Taken in that context, I can see you issue. Taken in my context I can't. I can see how hating someone who murdered your daughter could lead you to an irrational act of murdering that person, saying two wrongs don't make a right. But at the same time I can also say that I hope I am never faced with that challenge, because I could not love the sinner. I would hate him with all my heart. I would hope I didn't cause the same mistake, but I couldn't do it.

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