The Knowledge of Good and Evil

[William]

A recent thread which claimed that good and evil were just opinions got me to thinking about the Garden of Eden story.

In the story, the GOD appears not to want human beings to know of good and evil, and that in gaining the knowledge, the problems began for humanity.

So I was wondering what thoughts others might have on the subject of what kind of world we would live in without this knowledge, or as some argue - without this opinion - of good and evil.

[JP Cusick]

A recent thread which claimed that good and evil were just opinions got me to thinking about the Garden of Eden story.

In the story, the GOD appears not to want human beings to know of good and evil, and that in gaining the knowledge, the problems began for humanity.

So I was wondering what thoughts others might have on the subject of what kind of world we would live in without this knowledge, or as some argue - without this opinion - of good and evil.

The correct wording is important and the correct wording was = the knowledge of good and bad.

The word "bad" is not the same as "evil" and using the wrong words confuses the message.

The words "right and wrong" are completely different from the terms good and bad.

We can know right and wrong fairly easy, but the "knowledge of good and bad" is still poison today.

An example: To lie is wrong and to be honest is right. BUT = the poisoned knowledge of good and bad will say that sometimes it is good to lie and some times it is bad to be honest. As such the poisoned knowledge changes right and wrong into a perversion.

It is like human parents teaching their children not to have sex before marriage and not to marry until they are of a mature age, because a young child is not mature enough to do what their bodies are capable of performing. This is the same point about the "knowledge of good and bad" because humans were too immature for that knowledge and that is why it was the forbidden fruit. After the children grow up and mature then they could marry and have sex, so too when Adam and Eve had matured then they would be able to know the knowledge of good and bad.

They took the knowledge too soon, and that is what caused it to be poisoned knowledge, so it hurt them and that poisoned knowledge continued hurting humanity ever after.

The Bible tells that this knowledge was not going to be withheld from mankind, that nothing is to be withheld, see Hebrews 2:8, and it is still that way today, as we still must learn how to handle the knowledge before it stops being poison.

This same poisoned knowledge of good and bad as fruit from a tree is told in the old Hindu scriptures called the Bhagavadgita, and the cure is to do right and avoid wrong without any regard for the consequence - with no regard for our own view of good or bad.

[ttruscott]

A recent thread which claimed that good and evil were just opinions got me to thinking about the Garden of Eden story.

In the story, the GOD appears not to want human beings to know of good and evil, and that in gaining the knowledge, the problems began for humanity.

So I was wondering what thoughts others might have on the subject of what kind of world we would live in without this knowledge, or as some argue - without this opinion - of good and evil.

No one has ever successfully explained to me how knowing the difference between good and evil is bad. In fact, such knowledge is the base of all religious maturity and perfection:
Hebrews 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

1 Kings 3:9 So give your servant a discerning heart to govern your people and to distinguish between right and wrong. and

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

So I'm not at all comfortable that GOD did not to want human beings to know of good and evil and that in gaining the knowledge, the problems began for humanity. Some other interpretation of this sentence must be considered.

[JP Cusick]

No one has ever successfully explained to me how knowing the difference between good and evil is bad.

See how the person above is trying to judge whether that knowledge is "good or bad" because they are infected with the same old mental poison.

We can see this same poisoned knowledge in every person, just as we can see it here all through the comments on this forum, and we can see it on TV, and it is so widespread that the poison of today is factual proof of the same poisoned knowledge as told in Genesis 2-3.

See:
1) Pres Trump speaking the poison here = "very good" LINK

2) Pres Trump speaking the poison here = "really bad" LINK

And I like Trump so I am not criticizing Trump as if he is unusual - no, because every person on the entire planet earth has the exact same poisoned knowledge where people try to judge "good and bad" instead of doing right and resisting wrongs.

In fact, such knowledge is the base of all religious maturity and perfection: Hebrews 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

This is an excellent quoted Bible text directly telling that this poisoned knowledge must be "distinguished" which most people can not do.

It takes a lot of practice and self discipline to suppress this same old poison knowledge in our own brain and mentality, and then even more effort to correctly act on it.

So I'm not at all comfortable that GOD did not to want human beings to know of good and evil and that in gaining the knowledge, the problems began for humanity. Some other interpretation of this sentence must be considered.

Need another interpretation - yes exactly.

The knowledge was only to be withheld temporarily, Hebrews 2:8, as such Adam and Eve were too immature at that time, and humanity needed to mature before getting that powerful knowledge.

To get that knowledge without knowing how to distinguish it was thereby poisoned knowledge, and it is still poison today.

[bluethread]

The correct wording is important and the correct wording was = the knowledge of good and bad.

The word "bad" is not the same as "evil" and using the wrong words confuses the message.

The words "right and wrong" are completely different from the terms good and bad.

Sorry to come in late, I just noticed this thread. You are correct that we must use the correct words to understand the concept. However, the terms are not "good" and "bad" either. The terms are "tov" (Adonai's ways) and "ra'"(the ways of the nations). It might be more accurate, in this context, to refer to it as the tree of the knowledge of ra'. The reason it is referred to as the tree of the knowledge of "tov' and "ra'" is because "ra'" is based on "tov". Adam and Havah already had the knowledge of "tov". This concept is introduced in the first chapter of Genesis. Adonai does not say the knowledge in general is harmful. It is the fruit of the knowledge of "ra'" in opposition to "tov" that is harmful, especially in a society without natural constraints. Therefore, Adonai blessed Adam and Havah with natural constraints after the fall.

[JP Cusick]

Adonai does not say the knowledge in general is harmful. It is the fruit of the knowledge of ... that is harmful,

What you say here is wrong but I still appreciate it because I had to go look up the story to see what was right.

It is "the knowledge" and not the fruit.

It was Eve who said it inaccurately as "the fruit" here in Genesis 3:3

But God said that is was "the knowledge" see Genesis 2:17

Then at last God drove out the people because they had the poisoned knowledge (not the fruit but the knowledge of good and bad) per Genesis 3:22-24

If is had been the fruit as claimed by Eve then that would have been an entirely different message for us today, so you really peaked my interest.

Even claiming that it was an "apple" is following the error of Eve and of the serpent who saw it as the fruit instead of it being poisoned knowledge.

... especially in a society without natural constraints.
Therefore, Adonai blessed Adam and Havah with natural constraints after the fall.

God gave humanity coats of skin (physical body) thereafter which does create natural restraints, but that is just a bandage on the wound.

The same old poisoned knowledge is still infected into humanity ever after and going onward today into the 21st century.

[bluethread]

Cusick:

But God said that is was "the knowledge" see Genesis 2:17

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good(tov) and evil(ra'), thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

The tree was not ra', the tree contained tov and ra'. It says "you shall not eat('akal) of it". Just as it is not the pig that is unclean, but that eating the pig makes one unclean, so it is not the tree that is unclean, but eating of the tree that makes one unclean. That latter was part of Havah's error. (Gen. 3:3B) "Adonai hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die." That said, this is not a settled issue, many rabbi's insist on a fence against secular teachings. However, as to what the Scriptures say, there was nothing wrong with the tree. It is internalizing the ways of the nations that makes one unclean.

Then at last God drove out the people because they had the poisoned knowledge (not the fruit but the knowledge of good and bad) per Genesis 3:22-24

If is had been the fruit as claimed by Eve then that would have been an entirely different message for us today, so you really peaked my interest.

Even claiming that it was an "apple" is following the error of Eve and of the serpent who saw it as the fruit instead of it being poisoned knowledge.

As I said , this is not a settled issue. However, I am of the view that poison is in the application. Yes, one must be careful when looking at the knowledge if the nations, but it is the ingesting of that knowledge, not the existence of it that makes one unclean.

... especially in a society without natural constraints.
Therefore, Adonai blessed Adam and Havah with natural constraints after the fall.

God gave humanity coats of skin (physical body) thereafter which does create natural restraints, but that is just a bandage on the wound.

The same old poisoned knowledge is still infected into humanity ever after and going onward today into the 21st century.

Yes, there were certain constraints in creation that acclimated them to the world before the fall. However, more constraints were necessary after the fall to counter the effects of having the knowledge of the nations.

Then at last God drove out the people because they had the poisoned knowledge (not the fruit but the knowledge of good and bad) per Genesis 3:22-24

They were not driven out to keep them from the tree of the knowledge of tov and ra'. That ship had already sailed. They were driven out to keep them from the tree of life, lest they live in a state of perpetual death forever.

[JP Cusick]

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good(tov) and evil(ra'), thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

so it is not the tree that is unclean, but eating of the tree that makes one unclean.

it is the ingesting of that knowledge, not the existence of it that makes one unclean.

That is taking a spiritual message and turning it into a physical substance - which it is not.

It repeatedly says = The knowledge ...

Nobody ever after has eaten from such a tree nor eaten such a fruit, as it is now passed down from parents to children as a contagious disease.

It was and it remains a mental poison which we can still see ongoing today in every person throughout human history.

This reality that the same poisoned "knowledge of good and bad" is still visibly ongoing today is thereby one of the greatest verifiable proofs of the truth of God.

That poisoned knowledge is not healthy for humans, and for any of us to get right then we must shun it.

[Left Site]

[Replying to post 1 by William]

A recent thread which claimed that good and evil were just opinions got me to thinking about the Garden of Eden story.

Good and Evil are opinions. First and foremost in importance, Good and Evil are God's opinion. From there forward man has taken to himself to develop his own independent opinion.

It is Good that man has and opinion if man grasps his opinion from God's thinking, for then man's opinion is in harmony with God's opinion. But, when man develops his opinion apart from letting himself be taught of God's opinion on things, then, man's inexperience causes his own opinions to be flawed to various degrees. Independent of God, man's self developed opinions are themselves ripe with both good and bad. (Compare: Job 35:2-16)

In the story, the GOD appears not to want human beings to know of good and evil, and that in gaining the knowledge, the problems began for humanity.

You likely would desire that your child grow to be wise, right? Just as likely, you would not want your child to have to learn the hard way, through the trial and error which is a plainly foreseeable consequence of their lack of knowledge and wisdom inherent to lack of experience? And so, if you really love your child, you desire to impart your greater experience to them apart from their having to suffer as you did to gain it? And that can have, and in some cases has had, success at saving a loved one many a heartache. You know that your loved one's success or failure hinges on their willingness to consistently do one most important thing; that is, pay heed to you out of love and respect for you and not be forgetting your counsel for their benefit.

There are some who claim that experience is the best teacher. If that were true then of those who learn through the school of hard knocks, so many would not end up in suicide. The reality is that the frustration of that school is so great it causes many to grow bitter, making them to cease caring because it hurts to much to care. At that point they become even less willing to hear, even when good advice comes along. They feel like if they can't figure it out then nobody can and all who claim to have it figured out are just have not themselves yet learned. It's like, “Yes, I too used to think I understood.� So now they are stuck. Many continue on half living from there forward and many do not. Add to that the fact that the stress of it all results in illness for many and takes years from their life in that way. What's the solution? Proverbs 3:7-8  is the sage advice: “Be not wise in thine own eyes: fear the LORD, and depart from evil. It shall be health to thy navel, and marrow to thy bones.� (KJV)

Before we can depart from evil we must know for sure what things are evil. Among men we find conflicting opinions concerning what constitutes evil. That is because the vast majority of men judge good and evil by what seems good or evil to themselves. They either have not completely given themselves to learn God's view of good and evil, or, they have not given themselves to learn God's view at all. It's a Hosea 4:6 situation.

Did Adam and Eve know the difference between good an evil? God had told the not to eat of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil lest they die. They could not therefore claim ignorance of right and wrong. In fact, at 1 Timothy 2:14, Paul states, “And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.� (KJV) (Compare: Romans 1:18-32)

Isaiah 1:3  “The ox knoweth his owner, and the ass his master's crib: but Israel doth not know, my people doth not consider.
4  Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward.�

[bluethread]

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good(tov) and evil(ra'), thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

so it is not the tree that is unclean, but eating of the tree that makes one unclean.

it is the ingesting of that knowledge, not the existence of it that makes one unclean.

That is taking a spiritual message and turning it into a physical substance - which it is not.

It repeatedly says = The knowledge ...

Nobody ever after has eaten from such a tree nor eaten such a fruit, as it is now passed down from parents to children as a contagious disease.

I am not making a literalist argument. Whether it actually happened or not, it is the principles expressed in the analogy that is important to us today. Yes, those who come into contact with the knowledge of the nations can suffer disease. However, the ability to discern Adonai's ways from those of the nations is not a disease.

It was and it remains a mental poison which we can still see ongoing today in every person throughout human history.

This reality that the same poisoned "knowledge of good and bad" is still visibly ongoing today is thereby one of the greatest verifiable proofs of the truth of God.

That poisoned knowledge is not healthy for humans, and for any of us to get right then we must shun it.

I understand that is orthodox doctrine. The fact that you are asserting it makes me wonder why you are posting on this site. Aren't you afraid of being poisoned? That said, I do not believe the nations do everything wrong. To the extent that observe Adonai's ways (tov) there is no problem.

[Left Site]

A recent thread which claimed that good and evil were just opinions got me to thinking about the Garden of Eden story.

In the story, the GOD appears not to want human beings to know of good and evil, and that in gaining the knowledge, the problems began for humanity.

So I was wondering what thoughts others might have on the subject of what kind of world we would live in without this knowledge, or as some argue - without this opinion - of good and evil.

No one has ever successfully explained to me how knowing the difference between good and evil is bad. In fact, such knowledge is the base of all religious maturity and perfection:
Hebrews 5:14 But solid food is for the mature, who by constant use have trained themselves to distinguish good from evil.

1 Kings 3:9 So give your servant a discerning heart to govern your people and to distinguish between right and wrong. and

Isaiah 5:20 Woe to those who call evil good and good evil, who put darkness for light and light for darkness, who put bitter for sweet and sweet for bitter.

So I'm not at all comfortable that GOD did not to want human beings to know of good and evil and that in gaining the knowledge, the problems began for humanity. Some other interpretation of this sentence must be considered.

Yes, I think you may see the mistake that is being made concerning what it means to have knowledge of something.

You know the scriptures speak of having an affair with a woman as having knowledge of her.

The Tree of the Knowledge of Good and bad represented committing bad so as to have familiarity with it. And the reason it was both good and bad represented that the person no longer would rely on God to lead them but would instead decide what was good or bad for their own self and by their own self.

The God who created us knew that if we tasted bad we would begin to crave more bad. If we are honest with ourselves we would admit that we form bad habits knowing even while they are bad. Why? It is called addictive nature but when that so-called addictive nature helps us to form good habits it is beneficial.

So why would God create us with an addictive nature (if that is what we must call it)? It is better called "habitual nature."

Think how that habitual nature would have worked beneficially for us if we had kept our attention focused on God and allowed him to teach us nothing but good.

It is utter garbage that Adam and Eve had no sense of right and wrong. God was teaching them love. And they could see the animals of the field who lived by a cunning nature , not knowing godly love. They had plenty of references.