The Fate of Nonbelievers

[myth-one.com]

Christians believe the Bible to be inspired by God. If so, true Christian theology will be found in the Bible. Likewise, theology which cannot be found in the Bible is not true Christian theology. Participants in this topic will debate the eternal fate of nonbelievers -- as written in the Bible! Nonbelievers will be defined as anyone who does not believe in Jesus -- regardless of their age, intelligence, or any other factor! One's input is valuable only if supported by the Bible. Whether or not one actually believes the Bible to be true is inconsequential! No preference will be given based on religious beliefs, faith, denominations, etc. We will attempt to jointly and finally agree as to what the Bible states believers will be saved from! It will be a learning experience, with no preaching or attempts at "saving" anyone. Hopefully we can save human lives and reduce irrational fears! I encourage all to participate!

As a starting point. This is what I claim the Holy Bible states as to the fate of nonbelievers: (Click on any item below for a full biblical defense of that claim.)

2. The Bible defines two body types, natural and spiritual. God and the angels are spiritual bodied beings, while all other beings are physical. The main difference between the two types is longevity. Spiritual bodies are immortal, while natural bodies will perish. Also, pain is necessary for natural bodies to recognize when they're in harm's way. Spirits are indestructible, and thus need no pain.
3. Two separate and distinct physical deaths may befall mankind, but only the first death is a certainty. Every human will die the first death.
4. And every human who suffers their first death will be resurrected. Those whose names are written in the Book of Life will be resurrected to everlasting life.
5. But there will be an order to the resurrections. Christ was resurrected first. All dead believers will be resurrected at the second Coming of Christ, and all nonbelievers will be resurrected a thousand years after the Second Coming.
6. All Christians living at the time of the Second Coming will be changed into spiritual beings and meet Christ in the air.
7. At this time, there will be no living human Christians. All will have been born again of the Spirit as spiritual children of God. They will then spend the thousand year Millennium with Christ.
8. Following the Millennium, all dead nonbelievers will be resurrected as humans and face judgment. Following their judgment, those whose names are not written in the Book of Life are cast into the lake of fire and instantly perish -- being human. This is their second and everlasting death. They have opted out of life for all eternity.
9. But their names were not written into the Book of Life prior to their judgment! Everyone with their names written in the Book of Life were born again into the spiritual Kingdom of God at the Second Coming. The Book of Life was cleared at that time. So why check it again?
10. The only possible reason is that nonbelievers will have the opportunity to accept salvation during the judgment process! The blank Book of Life is reopened at the beginning of judgment so that names may be written into it. The names written into it will be names of nonbeliever who repent and accept Jesus as their Savior during their judgment.

Initial Conclusion: The everlasting fate of nonbelievers is eternal death. They will die -- never to live again.

Consequences: No humans will suffer eternally in the lake of fire. Distraught parents who murder their children in their innocent years in an effort to send them to heaven as they have been taught -- have been deceived! Likewise, the millions of deceived Christians who constantly worry about their unsaved family and loved ones being eternally tortured in the fires of hell can now chill out.

Click here to view the current "Fate of Nonbelievers" and supporting biblical evidence as resolved by debaters under this thread.

I will modify attachments linked to from this post as we debate the issue and find corrections or improvements! Hopefully, we will be led to a good result!

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 15 by myth-one.com]

CONCLUDING COMMENTS

Firstly again kudos for being a serious bible student. That said, it is a major weakness to believe one has nothing left to learn (not accusing you of this simply pointing out) so it is a good thing to being willing to continue to read and study which is why I provided links for you. A serious consideration for all the links I have provided in this post and the posts above (posts #16-21) would take at the very least a few days since they contain literally hundreds of scriptures.

A major issue I see in your work is you seem to believe that Jesus second "coming" (erkomai) and the events Paul associated with the first resurrection (as outlined in 1 Thess 4:17 as being parts of the same event. These are not synonymous (see links provided below)

The first (heavenly) ressurection:
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2007006
1 Thess 4:17 explained
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989259

Personal comments
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 159#869159

What is the coming of Christ?
https://www.jw.org/en/bible-teachings/q ... us-coming/
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2013530

A further issue is that you do not seem to have a clear idea of how the planet earth and its inhabitants figure in the final and eternal reward for those finally judged as righteous by God; and this is because it seems to me you do not have a clear understanding of what God's kingdom actually is. Please watch the following video it is only 4 mins long.

[removed]

SUPPORTING LINKS

What is God's kingdom?
https://www.jw.org/en/publications/book ... s-kingdom/

The meek shall inherit the earth, how?
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2004721

CONCLUSION Without a firm and clear understanding as to what God's purpose is for faithful mankind and what role God's kingdom plays in this, all the other details will never fall correctly into place.

click on image to enlarge



What is God's Kingdom and what will it do for mankind?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 402#865402
http://www.praisejehovah.com/images/640 ... essage.jpg

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 15 by myth-one.com]

Billions or trillions of people have died never having the opportunity to accept Jesus as their Savior. These nonbelievers are raised again as mortals during the second resurrection and given that opportunity!

WHERE IS POINT #10?

What will happen to the billions that are resurrected to physical life on earth as "mortals" and who are subsequently judged as being worthy of everlasting life after having been given the opportunity they did not previously have to learn the truth about Christ? Where will they spend eternity?







WHERE IS POINT #10

When Jesus returns destroys the wicked what will happen to those he does not destroy?




WHERE IS POINT #10?

Who are the meek that will inherit the earth?



[youtube][/youtube]

[JehovahsWitness]

Consequences: No humans will suffer eternally in the lake of fire. Distraught parents who murder their children in their innocent years in an effort to send them to heaven as they have been taught -- have been deceived! Likewise, the millions of deceived Christians who constantly worry about their unsaved family and loved ones being eternally tortured in the fires of hell can now chill out.

Jehovah's Witnesses have been teaching and preaching the fallacy of eternal torment in "hellfire" for well over one hundred years. I would go so far as NO other organization has been so vocal or has done more to take this basic point to the homes of people directly. Although there were no doubt groups in the middle ages that understood this point, the "great chill" of our modern age, started to an extent with the early bible students (like Charles Taze Russell) and others and as long as there is a Jehovah's Witness and a need to rectify the falsehood of eternal torture, will continue.



JW



I have already posted on this topic. LINK
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 948#843948

On March 10, 1903, the ministerial alliance made an effort to answer Russell's explanations of the Bible by choosing a highly educated man, skilled in argumentation, to challenge Russell to a six-day open debate. Actually, this was another attempt to discredit and expose Russell as an "ignorant and unlearned man." This Pittsburgh opponent of Russell, Dr. E. L. Eaton, was the minister of the North Avenue Methodist Episcopal Church. [...] On the whole, Russell came off victorious for each of the six debates and especially the last one on hell. It is reported that one of the attending clergymen, acknowledging that victory, came up to Russell after the last debate, saying: "I am glad to see you turn the hose on hell and put out the fire." - The Divine Purpose, pub. 1959 Chap 7, page 42
http://www.strictlygenteel.co.uk/divine ... pose7.html[/i]

Personal Blog: Turning the hose on Hell
http://www.tomsheepandgoats.com/2007/10 ... s-and.html

[myth-one.com]

A major issue I see in your work is you seem to believe that Jesus second "coming" (erkomai) and the events Paul associated with the first resurrection (as outlined in 1 Thess 4:17 as being parts of the same event. These are not synonymous (see links provided below)

Believers shall be rewarded with everlasting life:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Jesus will return with our reward:

Behold, thy salvation cometh; behold, his reward is with him... (Isaiah 62:11)

And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me... (Revelation 22:12)

His return is the Second Coming.

Paul states the same things:

For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.   (I Corinthians 15:22-23)

 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17)

All Christians (dead or alive) will be born again as spiritual bodied beings at the Second Coming according to the above scriptures.

Christ will come down from Heaven, deceased Christians will awaken and meet Him in the air, and living Christians will be changed and also join them in the air. All will be together and will enjoy the Millennium day of rest.

There will be no human Christians remaining on the earth. All will have received their reward and are enjoying the Millennium day of rest with their Lord.

Likewise, there will be no human Christian preachers on the earth. Once again, they are all enjoying the Millennium.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 24 by myth-one.com]

Did you read the links provided?

[myth-one.com]

The only possible reason is that nonbelievers will have the opportunity to accept salvation during the judgment process! The blank Book of Life is reopened at the beginning of judgment so that names may be written into it. The names written into it will be names of nonbeliever who repent and accept Jesus as their Savior during their judgment.

Initial Conclusion: The everlasting fate of nonbelievers is eternal death. They will die -- never to live again.

RESPONSE: So no Jews or Moslems will be in heaven you believe?

Jews and Moslems will be treated as all others who do not believe in Christ.

Who can say how many will accept Jesus as their Savior and enter everlasting spiritual life in the Kingdom of God when given the chance?

My guess is that the number would be in the billions.

[myth-one.com]

The original angels were created directly as everlasting spirits -- and that did not totally work out, as a third rebelled.

Why is your claim that the Satanic rebellion was a failure of HIS creation any better than my claim the Satanic fall fulfilled HIS purpose for creation which was to find all who wanted HIM as their GOD and HIS heaven out of those who did not want that so extremely they would make sure they never had to share heaven with HIM?

HE created us to choose yea or nay. We chose. What failed to work out?

God created the original angels with everlasting life, to care for His everlasting creations.

But Satan & a third of the angels rebelled against Heaven.

Satan will eventually be tormented day and night forever in the lake of fire prison.

At this point God intervened and went to Plan B. He recreated the earth and made mortal mankind a little lower than the angels to be trained as replacement caretakers for those who rebelled. Now, if the original angels who understood the mysteries of the universe rebelled, why give the new caretakers this knowledge initially. Let them learn it the hard way through on the job training, the old school of hard knocks. That way they will appreciate the gift of eternal life more when it is given. These new creatures achieve eternal life through believing in the Son of God.

The original angels assigned to the earth were obviously not respecters of God at the time of their rebellion. These lower beings (mankind) must respect and believe in the Son of God as a prerequisite to becoming a spiritual being which lives forever.

Under this method, replacements will choose whether or not they wish to opt in or out of everlasting life. It will be their choice.

It's an act of love on God's part.

Hopefully, He will never again have to sentence someone to eternity in prison.

[polonius]

The original angels were created directly as everlasting spirits -- and that did not totally work out, as a third rebelled.

Why is your claim that the Satanic rebellion was a failure of HIS creation any better than my claim the Satanic fall fulfilled HIS purpose for creation which was to find all who wanted HIM as their GOD and HIS heaven out of those who did not want that so extremely they would make sure they never had to share heaven with HIM?

HE created us to choose yea or nay. We chose. What failed to work out?

God created the original angels with everlasting life, to care for His everlasting creations.

But Satan & a third of the angels rebelled against Heaven.

Satan will eventually be tormented day and night forever in the lake of fire prison.

At this point God intervened and went to Plan B. He recreated the earth and made mortal mankind a little lower than the angels to be trained as replacement caretakers for those who rebelled. Now, if the original angels who understood the mysteries of the universe rebelled, why give the new caretakers this knowledge initially. Let them learn it the hard way through on the job training, the old school of hard knocks. That way they will appreciate the gift of eternal life more when it is given. These new creatures achieve eternal life through believing in the Son of God.

The original angels assigned to the earth were obviously not respecters of God at the time of their rebellion. These lower beings (mankind) must respect and believe in the Son of God as a prerequisite to becoming a spiritual being which lives forever.

Under this method, replacements will choose whether or not they wish to opt in or out of everlasting life. It will be their choice.

It's an act of love on God's part.

Hopefully, He will never again have to sentence someone to eternity in prison.

RESPONSE:

To prove beliefs such as the above can one credibly claim the writings as divinely inspired historical or religious proof if the writings were made 40-65 years after the events they describe, was written by non-witnesses for the purpose of making converts, and the overall writings contain errors and contradictions?

[myth-one.com]

The original angels were created directly as everlasting spirits -- and that did not totally work out, as a third rebelled.

Why is your claim that the Satanic rebellion was a failure of HIS creation any better than my claim the Satanic fall fulfilled HIS purpose for creation which was to find all who wanted HIM as their GOD and HIS heaven out of those who did not want that so extremely they would make sure they never had to share heaven with HIM?

HE created us to choose yea or nay. We chose. What failed to work out?

God created the original angels with everlasting life, to care for His everlasting creations.

But Satan & a third of the angels rebelled against Heaven.

Satan will eventually be tormented day and night forever in the lake of fire prison.

At this point God intervened and went to Plan B. He recreated the earth and made mortal mankind a little lower than the angels to be trained as replacement caretakers for those who rebelled. Now, if the original angels who understood the mysteries of the universe rebelled, why give the new caretakers this knowledge initially. Let them learn it the hard way through on the job training, the old school of hard knocks. That way they will appreciate the gift of eternal life more when it is given. These new creatures achieve eternal life through believing in the Son of God.

The original angels assigned to the earth were obviously not respecters of God at the time of their rebellion. These lower beings (mankind) must respect and believe in the Son of God as a prerequisite to becoming a spiritual being which lives forever.

Under this method, replacements will choose whether or not they wish to opt in or out of everlasting life. It will be their choice.

It's an act of love on God's part.

Hopefully, He will never again have to sentence someone to eternity in prison.

RESPONSE:

To prove beliefs such as the above can one credibly claim the writings as divinely inspired historical or religious proof if the writings were made 40-65 years after the events they describe, was written by non-witnesses for the purpose of making converts, and the overall writings contain errors and contradictions?

My source for those claims are the English language Bibles.

I can give evidence that the claims are supported in those Bibles -- whatever their origin.

[myth-one.com]

If you are claiming that Judgment is during the Millennium -- that is incorrect. It begins after the Millennium because that is when the resurrection of deceased nonbelievers occurs. They cannot face judgment if they are dead.

Did you read the links provided?

Judgement day
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/2012645

Earthly resurrection
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1200003709#h=29

"the rest of the dead"
https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/1101989262#h=33

Yes.

Like Paul, Jesus raised people from the "dead." He often stated that they were not dead, but simply asleep:

Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. (John 11:11)

And when he was come in, he saith unto them, Why make ye this ado, and weep? the damsel is not dead, but sleepeth. And they laughed him to scorn... (Mark 5:39-40)

They were awakened, not so much resurrected.

The first to be resurrected was Jesus:

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. (I Corinthians 15:20)

Just as Paul wrote:

But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the first fruits of them that slept. (I Corinthians 15:20)

There are three, and only three resurrection moments of importance in Christian theology. That of Jesus, that of Christians, and that of nonbelievers.

Those are events, not individual resurrections of one person. If we are counting resurrections of each person, the number will probably be in the billions.

The three resurrections of real significance to Christianity is what Paul and Jesus were discussing.

Also, the thief on the cross who believed in Jesus as His Savior will be in the first resurrection. Jesus died before Him, and he believed in Jesus, thus His name is written in the Book of Life.

The New Testament became effective and the Old Testament vanished away when the testator (Jesus) died:

For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth (Hebrews 9:15-17)

Had Jesus died after the thief, the thief would have fallen under the Old Testament covenant where the wages of sin is death. In that case, he would have been resurrected as a human at the second resurrection and accepted Jesus at that time.

It's a matter of timing.

You might want to make those changes.