Fulfilled prophesy convincing evidence of Bible's authorship

[McCulloch]

JehovahsWitness claims that the contents of the bible present convincing evidence of its Divine origin. The third reason of three given is that it records history before it has happened.

Questions for debate:

1. Is the Bible a reliable predictor of future events?
2. Have any of the Biblical prophesies failed?
3. Is fulfilled prophesy convincing evidence of the Bible's divine authorship?

QUESTION How do we know the bible (canon) is the word of God?

The contents of the bible present convincing evidence of its Divine origin.

#3 It records history before it has happened. The bible records historical dtails and events long before (in some cases hundreds of years) before they happened. This presents its most convincing evidence of Divine authorship since humans do not have the ability to see into the future.

CONCLUSION: The contents of the bible, its historical and scientific accuracy, its prophetic detail, as well as the practical benefits millions have drawn from applying its principles, convinces many that it is not just an exceptional book but, is what it claims to be, "the word of God".

[rikuoamero]

Daniel 11 predicts ... that Antiochus IV Epiphanes (the Greek king of the Seleucid Empire) would die in Palestine. He died in Persia.

What verse are you refering to, I know of no verse in the bible that mentions Antiochus IV Epiphanes can you provide a reference please.

JW

I might have got the chapter wrong. But a simple google search....

http://www.prophecyforum.com/antiochus.html
https://www.christiancourier.com/articl ... -epiphanes
http://www.ucg.ca/booklets/bible-and-ar ... -come-pass
http://ap.lanexdev.com/APContent.aspx?c ... ticle=4224

None of those links contain a bible verse with the name Antiochus IV Epiphanes in it. I have a concordance and I've looked it up, the name is definitely NOT in the bible.




JW

Called it.

[polonius]

JehovahsWitness wrote:

QUESTION How do we know the bible (canon) is the word of God?

The contents of the bible present convincing evidence of its Divine origin.

#3 It records history before it has happened. The bible records historical dtails and events long before (in some cases hundreds of years) before they happened. This presents its most convincing evidence of Divine authorship since humans do not have the ability to see into the future.

CONCLUSION: The contents of the bible, its historical and scientific accuracy, its prophetic detail, as well as the practical benefits millions have drawn from applying its principles, convinces many that it is not just an exceptional book but, is what it claims to be, "the word of God".

RESPONSE: How about an example (in detail). Is there any chance that the New Testament was written just claiming prophecy fulfillment?

[PghPanther]

This whole prophecy thing is a pet peeve of mine with theists........

So many of the prophecy claims are either too subjective, symbolic, lack detail or are not even a future prediction but taken out of context to assume that in retrospect.

When you think about it though...the real problem is that there is only one way to have a case that a supernatural aspect of a prophecy might exist (or else conscious beings from the future who have figured out how to time travel).....

.....to truly be considered a future prophecy fulfilled by a supernatural entity it would have to....

1) Be found as a documented claim (written text) but only found for the first time after the event has occurred.

2) This documented prior (ancient) claim must have been specific enough in its detail to leave no doubt as to what it was predicting and leveraged ideas no matter how profound in the text explained that way (i.e. no armies with horses and swords but specific descriptions of tank, planes, missiles, etc. even if the writer had no clue what this God was inspiring them to write).

3) Once read for the first time after the event it had predicted had already occurred that the event itself was left in no doubt about what the written document was talking about.

Here's an example:

Say today in 2017 we find a document that is dated 2 to 3,000 years old.....and that text says something like this....

...."and in a land founded by Europeans a great city named New York with twin towers built high into the sky were collapsed by an invasion of two large silver birds or planes as they would be called by humans inside guiding them into those buildings causing great destruction with 3,000 dead on a day forever known in that land as 9-11."

Now you might have something worth looking further into as to how this was spelled out centuries before it happened and yet had not been discovered until just recently.

The Bible has nothing of the sort........................in fact no prophecy at all you can define as having a supernatural impact.

Take the greatest Christian prophecy claim in the Bible............the rebirth of Israel.............what is so great about this happening when the whole Christian world (especially those in power within government and foreign policy) knew of such a claim and had the powers in their hands to make it happen.......in other words fulfill the prophecy on purpose.............such as the Arthur Balfour the British head of state with the Palestine colony who saw the opportunity to fill that Biblical claim with the Balfour act..........there is nothing supernatural about that.

Once again there is no supernatural validation of any kind of future events in the Bible.............its all nonsense........

I rest my case..

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 63 by PghPanther]

So many of the prophecy claims are either too subjective, symbolic, lack detail or are not even a future prediction but taken out of context to assume that in retrospect.

My personal favourite is when Jonah staying three days in the whale is claimed to be a prophecy for Jesus staying dead for three days.
How is that a prophecy? It's a story about a guy who got swallowed by a whale. At no point is there an indication that the story is speaking about the future.

[polonius]

In a number of passages Jesus says he will return within his generation (eg. "There are some standing here who will see...")

But although prophesied, it just didn't happen.

[PghPanther]

[Replying to post 63 by PghPanther]

So many of the prophecy claims are either too subjective, symbolic, lack detail or are not even a future prediction but taken out of context to assume that in retrospect.

My personal favourite is when Jonah staying three days in the whale is claimed to be a prophecy for Jesus staying dead for three days.
How is that a prophecy? It's a story about a guy who got swallowed by a whale. At no point is there an indication that the story is speaking about the future.

Theistic harmonization................oh look back here in the old testament it says he's in a whale for 3 days, hey that could be symbolic of Christ in the tomb....so lets at that in the text of our account of him as proof from ancient scriptures of his resurrection. Yeah...that's the ticket.

Maybe if that account has something about "and so shall the son of man be in the grave for 3 days and become resurrected out of the belly of death" or something like that within the old testament story and that this old testament story was not known to anyone until after the claimed resurrection of Christ took place. In other words that old testament scripture was found after the fact.....

........then we might consider this is something worth checking into further.

But as it is this story of the whale was all known beforehand so when Christianity came along that 3 day resurrect thing could be pulled out and used to say it was a prophecy.

[ttruscott]

[Replying to post 63 by PghPanther]

So many of the prophecy claims are either too subjective, symbolic, lack detail or are not even a future prediction but taken out of context to assume that in retrospect.

My personal favourite is when Jonah staying three days in the whale is claimed to be a prophecy for Jesus staying dead for three days.
How is that a prophecy? It's a story about a guy who got swallowed by a whale. At no point is there an indication that the story is speaking about the future.

Theistic harmonization................

Types with antitype fulfillment, NOT prophecy, nor prophetic harmonization.

Wiki says it pretty good:

Typology in Christian theology and Biblical exegesis is a doctrine or theory concerning the relationship of the Old Testament to the New Testament. Events, persons, or statements in the Old Testament are seen as types pre-figuring or superseded by antitypes, events or aspects of Christ or his revelation described in the New Testament. For example, Jonah may be seen as the type of Christ in that he emerged from the fish's belly and thus appeared to rise from death.

In the fullest version of the theory of typology, the whole purpose of the Old Testament is viewed as merely the provision of types for Christ, the antitype or fulfillment.

A definition is provided by https://www.dictionary.com/browse/antitype:
antitype
noun
something that is foreshadowed by a type or symbol, as a New Testament event prefigured in the Old Testament.

ie, nothing about prophecy or fulfillment.

[1213]

In a number of passages Jesus says he will return within his generation (eg. "There are some standing here who will see...")

But although prophesied, it just didn't happen.

I just want to say:

Most assuredly I tell you, there are some standing here who will in no way taste of death, until they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."
Matt. 16:28

Came true after few days, as shown here:

After six days, Jesus took with him Peter, James, and John his brother, and brought them up into a high mountain by themselves. He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his garments became as white as the light. Behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them talking with him.
Matt. 17:1-3

[Difflugia]

My personal favourite is when Jonah staying three days in the whale is claimed to be a prophecy for Jesus staying dead for three days.

Mine is 1 Kings 13:1-3:

Behold, a man of God came out of Judah by Yahwehs word to Bethel; and Jeroboam was standing by the altar to burn incense. He cried against the altar by Yahwehs word, and said, Altar! Altar! Yahweh says: Behold, a son will be born to Davids house, Josiah by name. On you he will sacrifice the priests of the high places who burn incense on you, and they will burn mens bones on you. He gave a sign the same day, saying, This is the sign which Yahweh has spoken: Behold, the altar will be split apart, and the ashes that are on it will be poured out.

Written down miraculously right after Josiah fulfilled it and they just remembered that 300 years ago some guy, the guy in that tomb right there, in fact, totally said it, we swear (2 Kings 23:15-17):

Moreover the altar that was at Bethel and the high place which Jeroboam the son of Nebat, who made Israel to sin, had made, even that altar and the high place he broke down; and he burned the high place and beat it to dust, and burned the Asherah. As Josiah turned himself, he spied the tombs that were there in the mountain; and he sent, and took the bones out of the tombs, and burned them on the altar, and defiled it, according to Yahwehs word which the man of God proclaimed, who proclaimed these things. Then he said, What monument is that which I see?

The men of the city told him, It is the tomb of the man of God who came from Judah and proclaimed these things that you have done against the altar of Bethel.